Freehand Sharpening

A place to share, learn, & show off sharpening tips, tricks, techniques, & tools for sharpening edges of all kinds.
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

cbnutt, I think carborundum can be a good choice. That it cuts pretty good in general is true because it's a pretty coarse stone. Even the finer side of a two sided stone is fairly coarse as compared to other more refined choices one has available. Carborundum was widely used in the trades where a polished edge wasn't nesessary or practicle and it served very well, but I think people became more enlightened and started using more refined stones that were always available to refine the sharpening process. Actually, a highly polished blade isn't always desirable. For instance in cleaning game, and butchering. I don't know this first hand. I don't hunt. I read that somewear.
I use my carborundum stones to shape an edge on stainless if necessary. Once an edge is established your home. The rest is easy. Just polish it up to where you want it at any level and heat up the beans, your done.
Joe
cbnutt
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: Lebanon Missouri.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by cbnutt »

Shoot low sheriff, he's ridin a Shetland.....
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

That looks good! Nice size, 8" will work well and new mint in the box. Post when you've give it a try will you?
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

There's nothing wrong with that stone. It will serve you well.
Joe
stagman
Silver Tier
Silver Tier
Posts: 1323
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:37 pm
Location: ARIZONA

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by stagman »

This is a great post all, ::tu::
enjoyed all the info
my absolute best buddy on the planet lives out of Cumberland, Kentucky...
He can sharpen freehand 10 times better than I can
with all my gadgets !!!
Allways teases me..32 yrs worth...about a yankee & his gadgets when
all ya need is a rock and some steel to scrape it on !!!
Stag
User avatar
tjmurphy
Posts: 11129
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: South of Cincinnati

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by tjmurphy »

For sure not the only stone I've got, but it certainly is the best. Don't know what to call it, just a piece of broken stone my grand-dad had. He died in 1954, so at least 56-years old but probably more like 75+. He made his own knives, butcher and kitchen knives, and this is a piece of the stone he used to keep them sharp. I can bring an edge up to razor sharp with this old feller. Pardon the crappy pic, all my indoor shots turn out grainy like this.
100_0100.JPG
A question. When would you use oil and when would you use water as the carrying agent on which stone?
"There are none so blind as those that refuse to see"

God Bless America - Though I don't know why he would want to.
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

tj, what a beautiful old stone that is. I don't know what to call it either. That it has been used for many years and is still in good form, that is, not dished out much, tell me it is a very hard stone. It seems sacrilegious to put water on that one.
I don't know that I would. Besides, your Grand dad would frown on a pup like me for suggesting it. I think I'd stick with oil.
I has worked for you and him.
I use water on all my stones. I soak them just a bit and use a spritzer to keep them wet.

How bout this old stone? 50 centavos at a flea market. I couldn't pass it up. This was/is a fine stone. I use it a lot.
Attachments
001.JPG
002.JPG
Joe
User avatar
tjmurphy
Posts: 11129
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: South of Cincinnati

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by tjmurphy »

Thanks FRJ. This little feller's been lost for about the last five years. There's another of his old stones floating around here somewhere along with his old John Primble razor hone. Need to start tearing my junk room apart to find those too. I've tried using my other stones and have ruined a couple of good knives in the process. They just don't work like this ol' guy. I guess a stone is a stone but the new one's don't seem to cut like the old ones. I've always used oil on my stones and you probably couldn't get water to stay on this old feller long enough to do any good anyway.

Wow, 50-cents, how could you lose? It sure looks like a dandy. Has it turned into your regular use stone yet? Bet it's a lot better than your newer stones. I'd have gladly paid that for it and more. Old is better.
"There are none so blind as those that refuse to see"

God Bless America - Though I don't know why he would want to.
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

Once I looked into my "stuff" that I hadn't been into in, say, seven years, looking for a pair of single action grips that I just had to have. I found them and other things that I did not remember that I owned. A rather pleasant adventure.

I hope you find his other stones and get used to your knife blades
That old stone is not my regular stone, but one of many that I use. It does'nt compare to my waterstones.
Waterstones are the cat's pajamas.
Joe
User avatar
tjmurphy
Posts: 11129
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: South of Cincinnati

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by tjmurphy »

My problem is that I put things up so that they don't get lost or broken and then forget where I put them :cry: ::dang:: ::shrug::
"There are none so blind as those that refuse to see"

God Bless America - Though I don't know why he would want to.
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

These are the types of stones mentioned so far:

Japanese Waterstones

Carborundum (silicon carbide)

Diamond Plate

Arkansas Stone


and one I forgot I had

Corundum (aluminum oxide)

Does anyone care to give a quick pro/con on each or add other types to the list?
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
cbnutt
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: Lebanon Missouri.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by cbnutt »

on the arkansas, i seem to have trouble sharping a stainless knife such as the late model case knifes, but the diamond seemed to do ok.
Shoot low sheriff, he's ridin a Shetland.....
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

My impression of the Arkansas stones that I usually come across is that they're the finer stones. The higher "grit" if you will. There must be coarse Arkansas stones to be had. I just don't know where. My point is, cbnutt, that you may have used a finer stone than was necessary for a very resistant steel. Resorting to a diamond stone, a more aggressive stone, solved your problem. I do that as well, although I use a two sided carborundum stone.
Joe
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

I have a reddish, two sided India stone. what ever that is.

Also, Mike,I don't know what corundum is.
I'll send a pic of my India, if you'll send a pic of the corundum........tomorrow.
Joe
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

Will do. It works pretty well but I like the carborundum better.
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

This direct quote from Sharpeningsupplies.com sums it up. They have everything you could ask for in sharpening equipment and the prices look reasonable. Nice find cbnutt.


"The three most common types of sharpening stones are oil stones, water stones, and diamond stones. Each of these stones has its own advantages that can help users achieve their sharpening goals.

Oil stones
Oil stones are the traditional Western stones that many people grew up using. These stones are made from one of three materials (Novaculite, Aluminum Oxide, or Silicon Carbide) and use oil for swarf (metal filing) removal.

The first oil stones are natural stones made from Novaculite. These natural stones are quarried in Arkansas and processed to make what we call Arkansas Stones. These stones are separated into different grades related to the density and the finish a stone produces on a blade. The coarsest of them are called Washita. The finer grades are called Soft Arkansas, Hard Arkansas, and Hard Translucent Arkansas. These natural oil stones can produce a polished edge, but tend to cut more slowly than man-made stones.


The next fastest cutting oil stone is called the India stone. The India stone is made of Aluminum Oxide (corundum). These stones can cut fast, and can also produce a fine edge on tools and knives. The grading system for these stones is generally labeled fine, medium, and coarse. These stones are often brown or orange in color.

The fastest cutting oil stones are made of Silicon Carbide (carborundum). The silicon carbide stones made by Norton are called Crystolon stones. These stones are also labeled fine, medium, and coarse. They are usually gray in color. While these stones will not produce an edge as fine as the India or natural stones, the fast cutting makes them ideal for initial coarse sharpening.

The good overall performance and the modest price are the oil stone’s greatest assets. A set of India or Crystolon stones are the least expensive stones to purchase. These stones are also relatively hard, so the stones rarely require flattening.

The main disadvantage of the oil stone is its slower cutting rate. Of the three main stone types, the oil stone is the slowest. The fact that oil is used to remove the swarf is also messier to clean up than water.

Water Stones
Water stones are relatively new to the Western world, but have gathered a large following due to their many advantages. Like the oil stones, the water stones are available in both natural and synthetic materials. However, due to availability, only synthetic stones will be discussed.

Synthetic water stones are generally made of Aluminum Oxide. This is the same abrasive material used in the India stones. However, the difference between the two is the binder that holds the abrasives in the water stone together. Water stones are softer than India stones, which promotes faster cutting because the old abrasive material breaks away and is replaced with fresh sharp material.

Fast cutting is clearly an advantage of the water stone. The other obvious advantage is the use of water rather than oil to remove the swarf from the stone. However, the water stone is not perfect. The softness that promotes fast cutting also wears the stone down more quickly. This tends to wear the stone unevenly, which requires flattening to bring the stone back into shape.

Diamond Stones
Diamond stones contain small diamonds attached to the face of a metal plate. These small industrial diamonds are much harder than any of the other sharpening stones. However, not all diamond stones perform the same function, nor are they always created equal.

There are two main types of diamond stone styles. The more common style contains holes in the diamond surface to capture the swarf. These stones cut very fast and are very simple to use. The next type is the continuous diamond surface. These stones are preferred when you are sharpening tools with points that might get caught in the recesses of the non-continuous diamond surface. Both types of diamond stones are available in mono-crystalline and poly-crystalline diamonds. The mono-crystalline diamonds are more desirable as they will last longer.

The two greatest advantages of the diamond stone are the very fast cutting that the diamonds provide and the flatness that is retained by the diamond stone. In fact, coarse diamond stones are often used to flatten oil or water stones. The main disadvantage of the diamond stone is its initial cost. While these stones are the most expensive, they will also last a long time, so the long-term cost can be comparable to other stones.

There are good reasons why there are different types of sharpening stones available. There is not one type of stone that is best for everyone. Selecting the right one starts by finding the stone with the best combination of advantages for your particular sharpening needs."
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
User avatar
FRJ
Posts: 15173
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: Ct.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by FRJ »

That's some good information, Mike. Thanks for that post.
Here are some pictures of some of my stones.
Attachments
My two largest stones; 3x12
My two largest stones; 3x12
Oak piece on bottom edge is removed and secured to bottom for placement in vice
Oak piece on bottom edge is removed and secured to bottom for placement in vice
Dust cover
Dust cover
009.JPG
Avery nice natural stone; 6"
Avery nice natural stone; 6"
012.JPG
013.JPG
014.JPG
015.JPG
016.JPG
Joe
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

Great post Joe. I love the old stones with the original boxes, not to mention the knives. You've got some high class pieces there. The Belgian stone is supposed to be about the finest grade. As a matter of fact I think I'm going to start collecting nice stones now. What is the brand name of the carborundum razor hone in the bottom picture? It looks familiar.

So from what I read last night India stone and corundum are both made from Aluminuim Oxide. There may be different binders used to make the stones and that's the difference. My corundum stone is just a cheap Chinese flea market stone but I'll post photos of all of mine, probably on Saturday.
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
User avatar
Froggyedge
Posts: 1121
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:00 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by Froggyedge »

Interesting and important thread with great info and nice pics! :D

Keeping the edge sharp for me is an essential part of the enjoyment of carrying and using a knife.
Cutting, slicing and whittling with a sharp knife feels great. Struggling with a dull edge is just frustrating and makes me grumpy.

I have searched my files to find some pics as illustrations and I have taken a few new ones and I think I'll divide this post into two parts.

Part one
The Really Dull Knife


As I've said earlier, there are many roads leading to the Rome of sharp edges. As long as you get there, your choice of road is not really important.
This is how I do it, but I do not in any way claim my way to be The Right Way.

As many of you know I'm a Norwegian and I grew up using a Tollekniv, which is our variety of the traditional Nordic fixed blades, just as the Swedes have their Slidkniv and the Finns their Puukko.
These knives are basically very similar and usually have a Scandinavian grind, or Scandi grind for short.
A Scandi grind produces a quite thin all-round edge, corresponding with our fixed blades traditionally being carried daily as all-round tools for whittling, farm work, working in the woods, making repairs, camp chores, preparing meals, eating, hunting, fishing... Once established, the edge is quite easily maintained.
sharpaug10 scandi grind.jpg
Growing up with the Scandi grind probably explains why I generally prefer my blades with a quite thin edge profile.

For years I mostly used Arkansas stones or a combination of Carborundum stones and Arkansas stones.
The last years I have been drifting towards the combination of diamonds and ceramic.

In July we spent some time combining vacation with house watching for my better half's father and stepmother. Before they went on vacation to Spain, I was asked if I could possibly sharpen some of the kitchen knives and a few other knives in the house.
Let's use this as a "case study".

These are the straight edged knives I found in the kitchen drawers.
sharpaug10 kitchen knives.jpg
Nothing fancy, but mostly good quality utility knives with decent steel. For some reason Finnish Fiskars seems to be the preferred brand of the house.
Most of these knives have seen years of use without ever being sharpened and they were all very dull.
When sharpening very dull knives or blades with damaged edges, I start out with a diamond stone.
I had brought a stone with four grades of "grit" and the knives all screamed for the coarse treatment first.
Sunny days and I put on some sunglasses and went to work outdoors.
sharpaug10 diamond.jpg
The bowl with water is for removing metal fragments from the diamonds, with I do frequently during the sharpening process.
Among the non-kitchen knives I sharpened was an old Sami knife (Leukku). The dark patina of the blade made it a good candidate for some pics, which I thought might come in handy some day. :)
I started by reprofiling the old and very dull blade, establishing a new edge with a thinner edge profile. Firm pressure initially, then gradually lighter.
sharpaug10 sami knife.jpg
Here you can see the new edge forming. Still quite rough, but getting smoother as I moved on to finer grades of diamonds.
sharpaug10 sami reprofiled.jpg
Quite a few knives and metal residue was building up in the bowl as I worked.
sharpaug10 metal particles.jpg
With such a diamond stone and some skills you can get a decent working edge on most knives, and some times that is all you really need.
I like my edges to be a bit more refined for that shaving sharpness and moved on to a ceramic rod.
But I'll leave that for a part two. (If you're interested in reading more, that is...)
Knivlaus mann er livlaus mann.

A knifeless man is a lifeless man - Old Nordic proverb.
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

Bring on Part 2 Froggy! Nice work as always, thank you. ::tu::
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
User avatar
Froggyedge
Posts: 1121
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:00 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by Froggyedge »

Thanks!
Part two is still an unfinished draft, but hopefully not for very long... :)
Knivlaus mann er livlaus mann.

A knifeless man is a lifeless man - Old Nordic proverb.
cbnutt
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: Lebanon Missouri.

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by cbnutt »

how about some tips on cleaning the stones ? ive herd mabe some comet or simualar cleaner and a toothbrush or something, and rinse off with water.
Shoot low sheriff, he's ridin a Shetland.....
User avatar
Froggyedge
Posts: 1121
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:00 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by Froggyedge »

Diamond whetstones are extremely easy to clean. Just a few seconds under running tap water!
On Arkansas stones I used honing oil for many years. I cleaned them after use with a drop of dishwashing soap, a toothbrush and tap water.
No matter which type of stones you prefer, keeping them clean is important!
Knivlaus mann er livlaus mann.

A knifeless man is a lifeless man - Old Nordic proverb.
coffeecup
Posts: 1367
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 4:15 am

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by coffeecup »

Being the cheap-and-lazy type, most of my stones come from auctions (where an old oil-soaked stone will often sell for less than a buck, because after all--who wants to clean them?).

Cleanup is easy. Put the stone in a pan or bowl (I use a cheap plastic shoe box from Wally-world). Put on rubber gloves. Spray the stone down with the cheapest oven cleaner you can find. Take the foam-covered stone and put it in a ziplock bag.

Let the stone sit over night. Put your gloves back on, open the bag in your sink, then scrub the stone with a wire brush. Oil and dirt are gone, and you can see what you actually have.

the dried soaked-in oil will come out this way, and the surfaces of the stone will be clean. If I need to dress the stone to flatten it out, I rub it on the side of a cinder block.
Quality should not be an accident. So what is the explanation for some of the knives we've seen in the past few years? (from A Knifebuyer's Manifesto)
User avatar
vikingdog
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:46 am
Location: Pennsylvania The Keystone State

Re: Freehand Sharpening

Post by vikingdog »

Great tip coffecup! Thank you. ::tu::
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash

My traditional Nordic knife blog: http://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/

Mike
Post Reply

Return to “Sharpening Forum”