realistic work knife sharpening

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jr in va
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realistic work knife sharpening

Post by jr in va »

I can get a 400/1200 approx grit bench stone or a 325/600 grit DMT.Rated M/SF and C/F.I want to be able to quickly sharpen a dulled knife without the clean up both in the kitchen and working knives.Is 600 going o be close to factory sharpness?Or,should I go for more.I do have crock sticks in 600 and 1000.
I'm thinking the C/F and finishing on the ceramic if time permits.Advice is welcome
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by FRJ »

jr in va, it's good to see you're considering stones. I'm assuming water stones.
The two stones you mention up front are quite coarse in the low end. I would use stones of that coarseness to develop an edge.
The 400 to 1200 is quite a jump in grit size. I am assuming that stone is a combination stone.
DMT stones are very fast cutting and that stone is quite coarse too. You will remove a lot of metal from your blade.
I don't have any experience with that kind of stone.
To me, factory sharpness could be anything. I've seen sharp and not so sharp in new knives. They are ground that way anyway for the most part and a stone would improve on them given good stone choice and proper technique.
Of course I have no idea what you are cutting with your work knives. Kitchen knives could probably be finished out with 800 or 1200 stones or what ever pleases you.
If you can get stones that aren't glued together you can use both sides and the edges.
You can almost always find some at flea markets or tag sales. It's nice to have lots of stones if you can get them.
Good luck with your search. I hope you find what you want.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by jr in va »

Thank you.I was referring to diamond stones.Traditional stones have their place and I want to use them,too.The Arkansas stones are what I'd really like someday.Mainly thinking of quick touch ups right now.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Dinadan »

JR - when you say you want to sharpen without the cleanup, what do you mean? I use a soft Arkansas in the kitchen and the only cleanup I do is a quick wipe of the blade with a paper towel and then a quick wipe of the stone with the same. I am pretty sure the diamond stones will leave enough metalic residue to warrant a wipe, not sure about ceramic. As far as sharpening time, about ten or twelve strokes on each side brings the edge back to where I want it.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Lansky1 »

If you want scary sharp, check out a Lansky jig - it's super cheap & easy to get a better than factory edge through modern methods.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

I'm no expert, but it has always been my belief that the stones develop the edge you want, and a leather strop with some green compound is what gives the final sharpness and also what maintains that sharpness. Strop after each use of the knife and you can go a long time before needing the stones again - depending (of course) on how hard you are using it.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by OLDE CUTLER »

Lansky1 wrote:If you want scary sharp, check out a Lansky jig - it's super cheap & easy to get a better than factory edge through modern methods.
Yes the Lansky system is a good one. I have used mine since the early 1980s, first with the original stones and lately with the diamond stones. What I like about the system is it's fast, and produces a very narrow and precise sharpen line on the edge of the blade. I always had trouble getting a consistent angle before I started using the Lansky.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by zp4ja »

With all due respect to the Lansky users, based on setup time I would not personally consider it to be a “fast touch up” as the OP question stated. Just my opinion just like we all have an opinion of what is fast.

I personally use a fine stone. All I own or use. Just one stone and it is a small little one. As long as I am not using knife as a pry bar or screwdriver or let it get severely dull, about 5 swipes each side takes less then a minute to razor sharp again.

I have used and owned a Lansky. Work well. Gave it to my Grandson.

Using a stone takes practice (preaching to the choir, I know). I sucked at it until after much trial and error, I understood the proper pressure and angle.

To each his own, whatever works for you.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Colonel26 »

I’m with Jerry. I have a couple of lansky sets. They are alright. The jig can actually get in the way of the stone if it isn’t set up just so so, and the jig doesn’t always fit all blades well. If you can get it set up right, it is useful for setting a bevel occasionally. Although I prefer a 1x30 belt grinder for that.

I use a bench stone for most all sharpening. That and a couple of old F. Dick steels. So my advice is to get a couple bench stones of whatever coarseness you prefer and just give your blades a touch up ever so often and then strop the on leather or a good steel.
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jr in va
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by jr in va »

I ordered a diamond F/C Dmt stone.6" by 2".Would like to have had an 8" but had to cut a corner somewhere.I want to try an Arkansas soft and black surgical someday.
I like the Lansky but there's something about the old style method which I want to learn.

Thanks to everyone who replied.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Mumbleypeg »

jr in va wrote: I like the Lansky but there's something about the old style method which I want to learn.
I was fortunate to be taught by my grandpa how to sharpen a knife using stones. If you're learning and don't have someone to teach you, I'd recommend you start on a "junker" knife or two. It's great that you want to learn. Once you do, it's like riding a bicycle. It's a skill you can use the rest of your life - you can do it! ::tu::

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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by zp4ja »

jr in va wrote:I ordered a diamond F/C Dmt stone.6" by 2".Would like to have had an 8" but had to cut a corner somewhere.I want to try an Arkansas soft and black surgical someday.
I like the Lansky but there's something about the old style method which I want to learn.

Thanks to everyone who replied.
Old school is good as far as stone sharpening in my opinion. Actually a good unwind for me to sharpen with a stone. May sound odd but it is what it is. Please let us know how the stone works out for you. I am no expert for sure but for me pressure and angle gets the results quickly.

Here is Dad’s old stone. As I said only thing I use. Measures 1” x 3 7/8” x 7/16” thick. Hand held moving knife not stone. Sharpen large knives like the big Hunter pictured. Based on thickness need to have your head screwed on to not shave off the fingertips. No idea on what type of stone it is but is definitely fine in grit.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

Jerry
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote:I'm no expert, but it has always been my belief that the stones develop the edge you want, and a leather strop with some green compound is what gives the final sharpness and also what maintains that sharpness. Strop after each use of the knife and you can go a long time before needing the stones again - depending (of course) on how hard you are using it.
That is not really the case. You can get a hair shaving edge that will cleanly slice phonebook paper even on a very low grit stone. A strop just bends the very apex of the edge back and forth, which actually weakens the apex because the bending fatigues it. I'm NOT saying stropping is bad and it shouldn't be done, but that is what's actually happening. The reason people think stropping is a "final sharpness" is because it smooths out the burr left from the stone. You can minimize a burr on a stone quite a bit without using a strop.

I have tried the "stropping to maintain" an edge thing before and I just don't understand why people claim it's very viable. It only has effect if the edge has very little to no damage and the edge has basically rolled over, if you have light reflecting from the edge (which means the apex is collapsed), chips or other damage then stropping will do absolutely nothing. The more you strop an edge the more and more it weakens the apex because of the constant bending, so each time you do it you will have worse edge retention. When you use a coarse stone to sharpen it removes the weakened steel from the apex, it's a fresh start. Sharpening to a burr is very bad, as it's over sharpening of the edge to the point the steel gives in and collapses. It makes the edge extremely weak and removes excess metal.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

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Am curious as to what your reactions might be to the following. I make it a practice to keep a honing steel or chef's steel anywhere I have my knives. In the kitchen obviously, but also in my office and another room that holds most of my knives. Although I often use knives, normally it is for fairly light duties. Perhaps with a blade that gets a lot of challenging work this would not be applicable. But whenever I find a blade that is losing the sharpness I want I give it a few passes with the steel and the improvement is immediate. I realize this is not "sharpening" as such; just a realignment of the micro-teeth of the blade edge. When the day comes when steel has to be removed I use a Speyderco or AG Russell V sharpener.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by FRJ »

I pretty much agree with Paul. I never use a strop. I don't entirely understand them. I think they are better suited for razors.
I must admit, though, that I have stropped an edge on clean cardboard or clean plywood. It can have it's place, but I don't have a strop as an accessory tool.
However, I don't like to use a very coarse grit stone on my knives because they can remove so much from the edge.
My blade edges are usually in pretty decent shape and I can get a fresh start, if needed, with a higher grit stone.
I'm really talking about my kitchen knives here. In my view you needn't go to a high grit stone for kitchen work especially if you are cutting meat. A polished edge can drag in meat. I do have a waterstone that is 8000 grit that I use with certain knives just because I can and feel comfortable with doing what ever I want with knives in terms of edge maintenance.
If I need to develop an edge on a blade, usually a pocket knife, then I will go to a coarse stone.
I stated in another thread some time ago that if all you had was a 8 inch, double grit, carborundum stone you would be well set
but with very few options.
Quick Steel brings up a good point about steels.
A few passes on a steel using thoughtful strokes and angles will bring back an edge very quickly.
Please don't follow the ridicules moves by some professional chefs when they hurriedly strike the steel with their knives.
That is nonsense.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

Quick Steel wrote:Am curious as to what your reactions might be to the following. I make it a practice to keep a honing steel or chef's steel anywhere I have my knives. In the kitchen obviously, but also in my office and another room that holds most of my knives. Although I often use knives, normally it is for fairly light duties. Perhaps with a blade that gets a lot of challenging work this would not be applicable. But whenever I find a blade that is losing the sharpness I want I give it a few passes with the steel and the improvement is immediate. I realize this is not "sharpening" as such; just a realignment of the micro-teeth of the blade edge. When the day comes when steel has to be removed I use a Speyderco or AG Russell V sharpener.

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Well, I dont personally prefer to use a steel for the following reasons. When I need to touch up a knife between sharpening the edge bevel I use a stone on the microbevel so it will cut off weakened steel rather than bend it back into place like a steel does but the amount of effort put into sharpening the microbevel it is about the same as using a steel. I normally use a coarse or medium stone for this as a more fine stone may only do about the same thing as a steel and just bend the edge back into place rather than grind off the weakened apex because the stone isn't coarse enough to remove enough material to get to fresh steel.

Now let me be clear, I am not saying that steeling isn't a viable option or that you shouldn't do it. It obviously is functional and has a purpose, but I prefer to approach touching up an edge between sharpening in a different way to maximize edge retention.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Quick Steel »

FRJ you are spot on about not imitating the chefs.Also, In the last couple of years I have seen "steels" being sold with diamond coated rods. This means that the uninformed are going to be quickly diminishing their cutlery if they imitate the rapid fire techniques they see on TV. Coating the steels with abrasives entirely ruins the intended purpose of steels.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by FRJ »

Thank you, Quick Steel.
Back years ago there was probably a steel in most households because their parents had one too and for very good reason.
They worked.

Paul, it's a pleasure to read your posts. You obviously have sharpened knives for some time and you have reasoned your technique to suit your needs. You have a grasp of what's taking place in the sharpening process using stones.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Colonel26 »

FRJ wrote:I pretty much agree with Paul. I never use a strop. I don't entirely understand them. I think they are better suited for razors.
I must admit, though, that I have stropped an edge on clean cardboard or clean plywood. It can have it's place, but I don't have a strop as an accessory tool.
However, I don't like to use a very coarse grit stone on my knives because they can remove so much from the edge.
My blade edges are usually in pretty decent shape and I can get a fresh start, if needed, with a higher grit stone.
I'm really talking about my kitchen knives here. In my view you needn't go to a high grit stone for kitchen work especially if you are cutting meat. A polished edge can drag in meat. I do have a waterstone that is 8000 grit that I use with certain knives just because I can and feel comfortable with doing what ever I want with knives in terms of edge maintenance.
If I need to develop an edge on a blade, usually a pocket knife, then I will go to a coarse stone.
I stated in another thread some time ago that if all you had was a 8 inch, double grit, carborundum stone you would be well set
but with very few options.
Quick Steel brings up a good point about steels.
A few passes on a steel using thoughtful strokes and angles will bring back an edge very quickly.
Please don't follow the ridicules moves by some professional chefs when they hurriedly strike the steel with their knives.
That is nonsense.
I agree with you on the highly polished edges that seem to be so in vogue today. IMO a knife with a slightly toothy edge cuts better than a highly polished edge. Now my straight razors, yes, but a knife is all together different.

I use steels some, mainly to line up the edge after sharpening. But I agree, those fast wild strokes are counter productive.

I find a course stone followed by a fine, skipping the medium altogether, gives very good results.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Colonel26 wrote:
FRJ wrote:I pretty much agree with Paul. I never use a strop. I don't entirely understand them. I think they are better suited for razors.
I must admit, though, that I have stropped an edge on clean cardboard or clean plywood. It can have it's place, but I don't have a strop as an accessory tool.
However, I don't like to use a very coarse grit stone on my knives because they can remove so much from the edge.
My blade edges are usually in pretty decent shape and I can get a fresh start, if needed, with a higher grit stone.
I'm really talking about my kitchen knives here. In my view you needn't go to a high grit stone for kitchen work especially if you are cutting meat. A polished edge can drag in meat. I do have a waterstone that is 8000 grit that I use with certain knives just because I can and feel comfortable with doing what ever I want with knives in terms of edge maintenance.
If I need to develop an edge on a blade, usually a pocket knife, then I will go to a coarse stone.
I stated in another thread some time ago that if all you had was a 8 inch, double grit, carborundum stone you would be well set
but with very few options.
Quick Steel brings up a good point about steels.
A few passes on a steel using thoughtful strokes and angles will bring back an edge very quickly.
Please don't follow the ridicules moves by some professional chefs when they hurriedly strike the steel with their knives.
That is nonsense.
I agree with you on the highly polished edges that seem to be so in vogue today. IMO a knife with a slightly toothy edge cuts better than a highly polished edge. Now my straight razors, yes, but a knife is all together different.

I use steels some, mainly to line up the edge after sharpening. But I agree, those fast wild strokes are counter productive.

I find a course stone followed by a fine, skipping the medium altogether, gives very good results.
Excellent advice in these two posts - IMHO should be required reading for everyone who sharpens knives. The idea that a highly polished edge is desirable (or even needed) may be true for a razor, but not for most knives. For most common cutting tasks encountered when using a knife, a toothy edge does in fact cut better. And you can get an edge that is both "toothy" and will shave, if you want it.

But I only tried to actually shave with a pocket knife once. ::woot:: :lol:

I typically carry a three-blade stockman, with each blade having a different kind of sharpened edge. To be used for different purposes, depending on what I need to cut. I have used a leather pad, cardboard, newsprint, the top of my boot, and the palm of my hand to put a polished shaving edge on a knife blade, mainly just to see if I could do it (or while sitting around a fire at camp :lol: ). But it's not a practice I would spend time doing otherwise.

Ken
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

I have a question for those who seem to be opposed to a mirror polished edge, and that is what experiences did you have with mirrored edges that would lead you to your current opinion and if it was something you tested to some degree?

When you sharpen a knife the stone leaves a scratch pattern on the edge, and that scratch pattern determines the direction of your cutting aggression. The finish level of that scratch pattern will also determine the cutting aggression, but also the sharpness. A high level mirror finish can be so much sharper than a toothy edge that it virtually just glides through certain objects where a toothy edge may catch and not cut as smooth. When I say toothy edge, it is indeed a sharp enough edge to easily shave hair and cleanly cut phonebook paper. There are advantages and disadvantages of toothy and mirror edge finishes, and also things one is better suited for than the other. When it comes to edges like the angles, finishes, scratch pattern direction and etcetera there is no one thing that's the best for everything. There's just too many variables in which a cutting tool can be used.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Colonel26 »

I’ll bite, pun intended. Here’s one example I can think of. Pick a tomato out of the garden, take out your pocket knife to cut it, and that mirror polished edge will smash it before it starts cutting. A toothier edge will cut it without smashing it.

Cutting grass strings off hay bales, a mirror polished edge slides on the strings without cutting them. Slicing meat, a mirror polished edge tends to tear and bog down. Breaking down cardboard boxes, a slightly toothier edge tends to slice through them better. Also, imo a slightly toothier edge stays useful longer than a mirror polished edge.

But like I said, for me a slightly toothy edge is a coarse stone followed by a smooth stone and then stropped or slightly steeled to get rid of the burr and line everything up. That’s what works for me.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Colonel26 wrote:I’ll bite, pun intended. Here’s one example I can think of. Pick a tomato out of the garden, take out your pocket knife to cut it, and that mirror polished edge will smash it before it starts cutting. A toothier edge will cut it without smashing it.

Cutting grass strings off hay bales, a mirror polished edge slides on the strings without cutting them. Slicing meat, a mirror polished edge tends to tear and bog down. Breaking down cardboard boxes, a slightly toothier edge tends to slice through them better. Also, imo a slightly toothier edge stays useful longer than a mirror polished edge.

But like I said, for me a slightly toothy edge is a coarse stone followed by a smooth stone and then stropped or slightly steeled to get rid of the burr and line everything up. That’s what works for me.
Thanks Wade. That sums it up pretty well - good examples of every day cutting tasks that are better served by a blade with a sharp but toothy edge. ::tu::

Paul, you said it very well, and the same as I was trying to say - different kinds of edges for different tasks. I just find for most things I do, a toothy edge works best. And for me at least it takes less sharpening effort and time time to get there.

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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by Quick Steel »

A very good and interesting exchange of viewpoints. Kudos to all.
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Re: realistic work knife sharpening

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

I appreciate the feedback guys, it always interests me how other people go about sharpening and the reasons why they do it their way.

Most of the time I sharpen to a shaving toothy edge, specifically I really like to use a 220 grit aluminum oxide stone for most reprofiling work and usually for setting the apex bevel but sometimes I use a little finer grits for the apex. I have a sharpmaker and that works very well for doing apex bevels, in addition to some other options I have. Most of the time when I sharpen average working knives I just want a sharp functional edge as fast as possible, and mirror edges require much more time than that.

For shorter secondary blades is usually where I like a mirror edge as those blades don't get much draw cut because of their short length so push cutting becomes more necessary and push cutting is where a mirror edge usually does quite well, of course the higher level of sharpness a mirror edge provides is quite nice. Now there are a couple of other reasons I do a mirror edge. One is because I'm ocd and usually like to have a fantastically sharp edge on at least one blade of the knife I'm carrying (if it has more than one blade) that I don't really use just so I always have it sharp just in case. The other reason is because sometimes it's just fun to have a really shiny edge, and it can look quite impressive. I really like the aesthetic of a mirror edge on a nicely patinaed blade.
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