Let's talk Vinyl Music.

This forum is for anything & everything music. Post & discuss your favorite songs, artists, instruments, collectibles or memorabilia. Feel free to share original works or covers if you play or perform.
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Old Folder
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Old Folder »

Other High End Turntables. :shock:

TechDAS Air Force V turntable
Aug 20, 2019

Unless a truly budget-priced Air Force model is in the works, the TechDAS turntable lineup now seems complete: The recently introduced Air Force Zero ($450,000) is at the top.

My first opinion to even consider purchasing technology that's this expensive, you truly do meet the criterion of having more money than brains. However, on second thought; If you are a Multi-Millionaire and music purity is your ultimate hobby than I say "Why not"? There are some very wealthy people that dedicate much of their free time in the pursuit of the highest quality of "Analog" music.
Of course, I do not see a Turntable at this cost as an investment. It is not a rare Automobile or Mint Honus Wagner Baseball Card or Real Estate that will grow in financial value, mostly because next year TechDAS will most likely have a newer advanced model most likely costing more than their current high end model.

Air Force Zero Turntable Debuts:
If You Have to Ask the Price, You Can't Afford it!

If you are in pursuit of the ultimate top of the line audio perfection, you may want to consider the below turntable.

TechDAS debuted the Air Force Zero turntable at a recent (March 16th 2019) event in Japan that commences a "world tour" for the 771 pound turntable (not including power supply and air pumps) that will make its American debut April 9th and 10th 2020 at The Audio Salon in Santa Monica California. It will next appear at Munich High End May 9-12th 2020.
The base frame of stainless steel weighs 220 pounds. The platter base of extra super duralumin weighs 77 pounds while the combined weight of five (count them) five platters weighs 260 pounds. Broken down there's a bottom 66 pound platter of forged stainless steel atop which is a second forged stainless platter weighing 44 pounds, topped by one of gunmetal weighing an addition 44 pounds, topped by a fourth forged stainless platter weighing an additional 44 pounds followed by a top platter of powdered sintered Tungsten weighing 61 pounds.

Belt drive is via a 3 phase 12 pole AC synchronous limited edition German Pabst motor. An electric motor powers the built in air suspension system. There are three power supply/air pump units weighing a total of 83 additional pounds. Dimensions are: 35" (W) x 26" (D) x 13" (H).

If you have to ask the cost, you cannot afford it but $300,000 is probably a good guess and there will be buyers.
This price is for the "Turntable" only!
You can add an additional $150.000 for the power supply and air pumps.
After taxes, (If you purchase it in California) your looking at close to $500.000 Yes, that's 1/2 Million dollars for a turntable only!
That leads me to wonder what equipment would you obtain to power this ultimate turntable with? Let's not forget a speaker system, a sound or theater room built specifically for acoustic refinement and accompanying proper seating and a foundation to support its near 1,000 pound weight, most presumably made out of fine imported Italian marble.
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

jerryd6818 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:26 pm I had a Technics SL 1300 and thought it was hot shirt. All I can say to that is WOW!
I couldn't afford an SL 1300 on a high school student's budget. I had to settle for the SL 1900. I loved that thing!
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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A little history on "Picture Discs"
Picture discs are records that appear to have pictures, images, or graphics on their playing surface. While most phonograph records are black, except for the label in the center, picture discs may display a photograph or artwork over the entire playing surface.
Picture discs look like round photographs, though unlike photographs, they can also play music.
From a manufacturing standpoint, picture discs consist of a solid core, made of plastic, paper, or metal, that has a paper image placed over it. The core and photo are then covered with clear vinyl and the grooves are pressed on top of them using traditional record presses.
This process necessarily uses less vinyl in the grooves than standard records, and often yields less-than-optimal sound quality. Because of their substandard sound quality, most picture discs are produced as limited edition products, generally targeted at collectors, and are intended to supplement the supply of standard black vinyl records.

I purchased the below "Will Eisner‘s The Spirit Picture Disc/Ev’ry Little Bug" when it came out in 1987. It was $12.98 and was produced and sold in a clear vinyl album cover.
The 1987 Spirit Picture Disc.
This LP album is Will Eisner‘s The Spirit Picture Disc/Ev’ry Little Bug by Eisner/Bill Harr/John Christensen. It features new recordings of “Ev’ry Little Bug” as performed by John Christensen and friends.
The words for the song came from Will Eisner, from his Spirit comic magazine, which was published as an insert it newspapers during the forties and the fifties.
The music was composed by Bill Harr in 1947. These recordings on the record include excerpts from the original 1948 Spirit TV show. The disc itself is copyright 1987, and released by Kitchen Sink Press.

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Below is the 7" 45 rpm "Disneyland Main Street Electrical Parade" and "It's A Small World" we purchased in 1978 when our Daughter was almost 3 years old while visiting Disneyland. They were only sold at Disneyland as "souvenirs" of a visit to the theme park.

IMG_0005 (2).JPG

Many older 78 rpm records produced in the 1930s into the early 1950s with Disney and non-Disney labels are in demand by collectors and sell for many thousands of dollars. Finding these 78 rpm recordings in anything near mint is a real coup, but they do exist and pop-up on occasion
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by carrmillus »

...after reading some of this, I need to get out some of my old lp's and play them again!!!!..... ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu:: ............
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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carrmillus wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:22 pm ...after reading some of this, I need to get out some of my old lp's and play them again!!!!..... ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu:: ............
Great!
Let the good times roll carrmillus.
::ds::
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Old Folder »

Let's talk about RPM

Vinyl Record Sizes and Speeds – What does 33 – 45- 78 RPM mean?

The Difference in Vinyl Record Speeds (33, 45, and 78 records)
33, 45, 78. If you are a new comer to vinyl you may wonder what these numbers actually mean. Vinyl records typically come in three speeds: 33, 45 and 78 rotations per minute (RPM). I believe that the vast majority of aapk members are aware of this.

If you’re like most record lovers you’ve probably flipped speeds from time to time in order to hear your music faster or slower than normal.

It’s a funny little experiment, but what are there three different speeds to begin with? Each not only has a very specific reasoning behind the speed but the state of technology at the time of invention has much to do with the playback speed as well.

The Quest For Better Sound and Improved Playing Time.
The slower a record turns, the less the audio quality. Due to this, in order to provide the best sound possible, the record needs to turn faster (higher RPM). However, when a record turns faster the amount of information it can hold on a record is reduced thus having a shorter playback time.

This is because more information pressed into the vinyl is read in the same period of time. The desire to improve sound quality and yet provide adequate playing time is an issue that remains to this day, but in the early days of audio recording it proved to be a major hurdle.

Early Phonographs:
Thomas Edison invented the very first phonograph, which worked off of a hand crank. Due to this, a set standard speed proved to be impossible.

The average user hand cranked the device at around 80 RPM, yet the vinyl cylinders of the age could hold only five minutes worth of playback material.

The Creation of 78 RPM:
Inventor Emile Berliner created the first true disc record in 1888. However, unlike the Edison model, his playback device used an electric motor. The motor played back a disc at times between 70 and 80 RPM.

As more and more audio manufacturers turned to producing record players, the idea of a 78 RPM turntable became the norm. This is because the 3600 RPM motor used within the turntable saw peak performance at 78.26 RPM.

Eventually, this became the official record standard by 1925. These early records had their short comings however. Not only were they limited in playback time (approximately 3 minutes per side) but also were quite brittle and prone to shatter as they were made of a shellac material. The size of disc varied over time with 10 inches eventually becoming a popular size.

Inventing the 33, Yet Few Used It:
By the time 78 became standard, new methods of audio recording had emerged. This allowed for more information to be printed onto a smaller record without losing any fidelity. Printing records capable of playing at 33 RMP proved to be financially desirable for record companies.

Not only did smaller records suffer less damage but the discs could be printed for less. However, right as the 33 standard emerged, radio proved to be the basis of listening entertainment. Consumers did not need to purchase expensive records.

They could simply listen to the radio. The 33 RMP records stayed in production during this time, but audio studios were the primary user as it took up less room and cost less.

The 33 did not make any real impact on the consumer market until 1948. At this time, Columbia Records began selling a 33 system. It marketed the device with the ability to playback entire classical music performances and symphonies without having to flip the disc over.

Releasing the 45 RPM:
Format wars is nothing new in the audio and video department. From VHS vs. Beta to Blu-ray vs HD-DVD, companies have often put out competing formats. RCA, which failed miserably in the 1930s to release a 33 to the public went out to release a 45 RPM.

The record was smaller than the other options. Ultimately, RCA released the format in order to directly compete with the Columbia Record 33. The 45 of the time did not provide much in terms of an advantage over 78s, and Columbia’s system could play both 33 and 78, so few manufacturers picked up on the 45s.

While the 45 didn’t provide any real benefit over the 78, it was a smaller size. So, by the early 1950s, nearly all record manufactures focused on systems that could play both the 33 and the 45. The 78 more or less dropped out shortly after the conclusion of World War II.

The faster a record spins, the better it sounds. With that in mind, there is only so much a record can play. This ultimately proved to be why the 45 outlived the 78. Of course, everyone has their own listening preferences, so there are still fans of the 78s.

All three speeds though have played an interesting role in the development of enjoying audio at home. There are certain limitations to certain speed records in how they are produced impacting their playback.

Not all record players (Turntables) can play 78s. In order to play a 78 many turntables require special needles or alteration to be able to play at 78 RPM. For those vinyl collectors who want the ultimate freedom of playing all of their records they can opt for an all-in-one record player.

10 inch records can be cut at 45 rpm or 33 rpm and are great for shorter length albums, 45 rpm (with 9-12 minutes per side) or 33 rpm (with about 12-15 minutes per side).


My below 10" Inch Album by Rickie Lee Jones, "Girl At Her Volcano" on Warner Brothers label from 1983 was recorded when Rickey was around 20 years old.

An excellent recording, she has a beautiful voice, I particularly like "Under The Boardwalk". It spins at 33 rpm.

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Steve Warden »

Interesting read. Thanks Dan.
Take care and God bless,

Steve
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by royal0014 »

Interesting information ... ::tu::

Seems I recall it actually being 33 and 1/3rd RPM
::shrug::
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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The old stuff just keeps getting better, I just can’t seem to get my body to buy in.
I buy roosters combs and farmers..........................................................jack knives [/b]

GEC SFOs and others at LICK CREEK CUTLERY- www.allaboutpocketknives.com/wlf

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Steve Warden »

There are times I do kinda miss the hiss and pop of vinyl.
Take care and God bless,

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Steve Warden »

Trivia...

The average 33 1/3 rpm LP had 5 songs per side, each song averaging 3 minutes and 20 seconds. How many grooves were on an LP?
Take care and God bless,

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by jerryd6818 »

Over the years, there were five speeds, 8 1⁄3, ​16 2⁄3, ​33 1⁄3, 45 and 78. I don't recall seeing 8 1/3. That must have been very early.
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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Steve Warden wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:52 pm Trivia...

The average 33 1/3 rpm LP had 5 songs per side, each song averaging 3 minutes and 20 seconds. How many grooves were on an LP?
Just swaggin' here, but my calculator says 556 grooves per side (average)

[edit] google says I'm wrong...
I guess strictly speaking there is only one groove per side, but it spirals around itself about 400 times.. ::dang::
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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rangerbluedog wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 pm
Steve Warden wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:52 pm Trivia...

The average 33 1/3 rpm LP had 5 songs per side, each song averaging 3 minutes and 20 seconds. How many grooves were on an LP?
Just swaggin' here, but my calculator says 556 grooves per side (average)
A little high.
Take care and God bless,

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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royal0014 wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:21 pm Interesting information ... ::tu::

Seems I recall it actually being 33 and 1/3rd RPM
::shrug::

Technically, yes. It is "33 and 1/3rd RPM"
It's the same 33 rpm on the player which is actually 33.3 rpm. Records and players are often just labeled as 33 rpm.
33 is shorthand for “33 and 1/3”, so you’re playing at the correct speed.
And "78 RPM" is actually 78.26 RPM.
Also, many turntables have "increment" speed adjustment knobs or levers with LED read-outs showing the exact rpm speed of your platter.

Phonograph records are generally described by their diameter in inches (12-inch, 10-inch, 7-inch), the rotational speed in revolutions per minute (rpm) at which they are played (33 1⁄3, 45, 78).
I shall compose and post a list of many other speeds and their purposes shortly.
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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jerryd6818 wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:04 pm Over the years, there were five speeds, 8 1⁄3, ​16 2⁄3, ​33 1⁄3, 45 and 78. I don't recall seeing 8 1/3. That must have been very early.
I have learned and obtained the below information over many years of research of vinyl records and vinyl history.

Actually throughout the history of the recording industry, numerous unusual turn-speeds ranging from 3 to 130 RPM have been utilized for a variety of purposes.
Most are oblivious or latent to us because they are not used in our day to day activities or occupation, especially for those of us here at AAPK.
I have listed below 10 separate speeds and their "most" obvious reason for original introduction. I have not listed uses for 45, or 33 rpm because they are quite obvious.
Of course there may be others that I have not listed, and as technology advances there may be a need or demand for new speeds.

Turn Speed and Uses:

3 RPM
On March 28, 2012, Jack White held a party to celebrate the third anniversary of his Nashville label/record store Third Man Records. The attendees were each given a copy of an LP entitled The First Three Years of Blue Series Singles On One LP at 3 RPM. It consists of 56 songs by 28 bands previously released on Third Man's Blue Series 7" single line compiled on one blue vinyl 12" record, mastered at 3 RPM (approximately 1/11 of standard LP speed) as a further expression of White's obsession with the number 3. In reality though, if one synchronizes this 'catalog' LP with the various CDs containing the music recorded at the correct speed, they will discover that the record in question was actually mastered to play back properly at 4 1/6 RPM. However, as no recording lathe can engrave a record accurately at such a slow speed, in actuality the disc was mastered at four-times speed or 16 RPM with the program material similarly being played at quadruple speed.


4 1/6 RPM
Audiobooks for the blind. In 1966, experiments were conducted by the American Printing House for the Blind in cooperation with the American Foundation for the Blind to create extra-high density discs so that a book or magazine could be contained on fewer records. Test pressings were made at the normal 12-inch and 10-inch sizes in addition to the 7-inch sizes noted below for both 8 1/3 as well as 16 2/3. However, with mastering facilities of the period only going as low as 16 RPM, the quadruple-speed mastering required to get a playback speed of 4 RPM was deemed to have an insufficient audio quality. The highest successful density tested for in the experiment was 10 hours on one side of a 12-inch disc although it was surmised by engineers that this could be extended to 12 hours per side if needed. No books or periodicals were ever produced in the format, and it is not known if any of the experimental discs survive into the modern age.

8 1/3 RPM
Audiobooks for the blind — Beginning in 1969, 8 1/3 RPM records began to be produced (normally in 10-inch format, although 12-inch and 7-inch discs were also produced). This recording format's development was sponsored by the American Foundation for the Blind. One 10-inch record holds four hours of speech with the 12-inch variety holding six hours and the 7-inch variety holding roughly 90 minutes. The format was later used to distribute magazines on nine-inch "flexible discs" recorded at the same 8 1/3 RPM. These discs were made of thin plastic and were literally flexible, similar to an overhead projector transparency sheet. The first magazine to be circulated widely in the flexible disc format to blind individuals was U.S. News & World Report. The National Library Service for the Blind ceased using analog discs as a format for audio book and magazine distribution in 2001.

16 2/3 RPM
Spoken word records — The 16 2/3 RPM speed was used almost exclusively for spoken word content, in particular for earlier versions of the "talking books" used by the visually impaired, though it was also employed in the Seeburg 1000 Background Music System. For this reason, the inclusion of a 16 2/3 speed setting on turntables was compulsory in some countries for many years, despite the records themselves being a rarity. Cassette tapes proved to be a far more popular format for such spoken content. 16 2/3 RPM talking books require a 0.5 (half) mil stylus to avoid being destroyed.
Chrysler's short-lived Highway Hi-Fi format also used 16 2/3 7-inch discs. Some manufacturers of very low-speed discs such as Highway Hi-Fi used shallow and narrow "ultra-microgrooves," requiring a 0.25 mil stylus - modern styluses of 0.7-1.0 mil will damage these fine grooves.
Another notable example of a "16 RPM" record was a 7" single of the song Orouburous by drone band Earth.
The Prestige Jazz double-album MONO series are 12-inch 16-RPM discs. They can be played with a normal mono or stereo stylus (0.7 to 1.0 mil) stylus without damage.

24 RPM
Talking books for the blind in Europe. During the same period, especially in the UK, producers manufactured this speed prior to the days when 16 RPM could provide intelligible voice recognition quality over repeated plays.
Dictation records in the U.S. such as the Edison Voicewriter which recorded on thin flexible plastic discs.

60 RPM
Pre-standardization period — Before 1930, particularly before 1925, a number of proprietary formats existed, with recordings made at speeds including 60 RPM (although most were between 72 and 82 RPM).

77.92 RPM
Pre-standardization period — Before 1930, and before the 78 RPM was considered a worldwide standard, European records were often recorded at 77.92 RPM.

78.26 RPM
Pre-standardization period — Before 1930, and before the 78 RPM was considered a worldwide standard, American records were often recorded at 78.26 RPM.

80 RPM
Edison Disc Records — Standardized to run at 80 RPM, these records were vertically cut, ¼-inch thick with a core of wood flour and, later, china clay.

130 RPM
Pre-standardization period — Before 1930, particularly before 1925, a number of proprietary formats existed, with recordings made at speeds including 130 RPM (although most were between 72 and 82 RPM).
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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Steve Warden wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:52 pm Trivia...

The average 33 1/3 rpm LP had 5 songs per side, each song averaging 3 minutes and 20 seconds. How many grooves were on an LP?
Excellent question Steve. ::nod::

After much thought and an endless night of deprived sleep and referring to my old college Calculus books, and numerous "Calculus Worksheet's" I was still stumped. ::hmm:: ::shrug::

38267805-advanced-calculus-and-formulas-on-a-white-background.jpg

Than I said to myself, "Self.... what would Albert Einstein say"?
::pace::

1920px-Albert_Einstein_Head.jpg

Finally, as the morning twilight was approaching my East facing window, I finally came to a conclusion!

The total Grove count on an LP is:
"One (1) Continuous Groove"
::groove::
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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Old Folder wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:47 am
Steve Warden wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:52 pm Trivia...

The average 33 1/3 rpm LP had 5 songs per side, each song averaging 3 minutes and 20 seconds. How many grooves were on an LP?
Excellent question Steve. ::nod::

After much thought and an endless night of deprived sleep and referring to my old college Calculus books, and numerous "Calculus Worksheet's" I was still stumped. ::hmm:: ::shrug::


38267805-advanced-calculus-and-formulas-on-a-white-background.jpg


Than I said to myself, "Self.... what would Albert Einstein say"?
::pace::


1920px-Albert_Einstein_Head.jpg


Finally, as the morning twilight was approaching my East facing window, I finally came to a conclusion!

The total Grove count on an LP is:
"One (1) Continuous Groove"
::groove::
Oh so close! Two groves on an LP, one per side :wink:
Well done!
Take care and God bless,

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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

You forgot to count the big scratch that went across the LP from when my sister borrowed my favorite album without asking...
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Old Folder »

Oh so close! Two groves on an LP, one per side :wink:
Well done!

Thank you Steve.
I'll accept that I am half correct.
I forgot to turn the LP over. :oops:
(Also I would like to add that I never studied Calculus in college and I have no Calculus books).
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

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TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:58 pm You forgot to count the big scratch that went across the LP from when my sister borrowed my favorite album without asking...
That's why I never "loan" out my vinyl. They would never come back the same way they left.
Besides, I do enough damage on my own.
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by knife7knut »

Got my first 33 1/3 album in 1956(a Hank Williams 3 album set that I still have)and never really stopped. Started getting into blues in 1961 with Lightnin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters. Had a large collection of 45's I sold in 64 when I went into the Navy. Have no idea how many albums I still have but there are a lot. Most are in the basement with my MCS(Modular Component Systems)3233 receiver and Garrard Lab100 turntable. The shop has a Marantz SR4000 receiver and turntable.
As for music preferences;I like just about anything from classical to country and blues but no RAP! Modern music just doesn't get it for me.
Here are a few of my favorites.
David Allan Coe
Hank Williams
Jack Scott
Jerry Jeff Walker
Kinky Friedman
Kitty Wells
Leo Kottke
Pure Prairie League
Ricky Skaggs
Roy Buchannan
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by Old Folder »

Your "Garrard Lab100 turntable" is a excellent turntable. My first turntable was a Garrard but I do not remember the model number. It was not as advanced as your Lab 100 though.
You have a fine selection of records. ::nod::
Can you set your system up in the basement?
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by knife7knut »

I have set ups both in the basement and the shop. The basement one gets the most workout;or at least it did until No.1 son moved back in.And that is all I will say about that.
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Re: Let's talk Vinyl Music.

Post by jerryd6818 »

Ray, you have very good taste in music, even if I do say so myself.

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