Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

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Whitneyrifle
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Whitneyrifle » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:08 pm

ScoutKnives wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:58 pm
No problem , I don’t consider myself as an expert but I have handled a lot of vintage knives in the last 30+ years in this hobby .
The long pull nail nick looks cold struck , the tang stamp looks cold struck , the bone definitely doesn’t look period , the center pin is spun which wouldn’t be from that era .
So, what is a spun pin? These pins appear peened. Is there a difference?
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Mumbleypeg » Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:34 pm

Yes, there is a difference. Peening is the method typically used on pins in older knives prior to the advent of pin spinner tools. If you haven’t seen it before I recommend you watch this video of the knife making operations in the modern day Case factory. Pin spinning is shown right after knife assembly, about 3:20 to 3:30 into the video. Although it’s a modern day knife factory with some automation, many of the operations shown in the video have not changed in decades.



Since you have the knife in-hand you’re a better judge of what the pins are like than what’s visible in the pictures. Which don’t appear to be peened. It’s the portion of the pin that’s outside the cover material, not the shank inside. Think of it as a rivet whose “head” has been enlarged and flattened to secure it such that it holds the material in place.

Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.

When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.

https://www.akti.org/

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Whitneyrifle
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Whitneyrifle » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:03 pm

Thank you, I will watch the video later this evening. I am out with family at the moment. I did take enlarged photos of the pins earlier due to the conversation. I will post them tomorrow. To me, they appear to be peened, but I very well could be mistaken.
You have to be trusted by the people that lie to you. So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in….

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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Mumbleypeg » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:25 pm

Whitneyrifle wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:11 pm

I do appreciate and respect your honest and candid opinion. I will say, that I respectfully disagree, but I wish to table that matter and ask a question to educate myself and possibly others.
Still being a neophyte in this hobby (I have collected civil war firearms for decades), I want to post two pictures and ask if you could clarify for me somethings.
First, there is a picture of the first knife and what I believe to be a “mushy” spot. I have circled it in blue, am I correct? I want to know for my own education. I provided a close up of the one I have and I can not see a “mushy” area, could you show me where? Again, for my own education.
Second question is, and I ask, not knowing, how do you know if a pin is spun if the shaft/shank is inside the scale? Again, I ask to learn. I had seen your previous posting, but as I said, I am trying to learn.
Thirdly, how can you tell if the tang is “shaved”, especially on an older knife, such as the one I have shown? I know it has had heavy usage, could it be from wear and tear/sharpening, or is there something more distinctive?
I know this post sounds defensive and adversarial, but it is not. It is about learning and educating.
I do appreciate any further input you can provide.
There’s a lot to “unpack” here but I’ll give it a shot - not sure I can explain in a few words what has taken years of handling and studying knives to learn. When a cold stamp is applied there is metal “mashed out” and up around the letters. An authentic stamp appears cut into the metal, not mashed into it. Think of pushing a spoon round-side down into mashed potatoes - you’ll see mashed potatoes pushed up and outward around the edges of the spoon. Then turn the spoon so it goes in edge first - you’ll see a smooth clean divot cut by the spoon.

An example of a good crisp old stamp. And a good grind line. Note how the letters appear to be cut into the metal, not mashed into it. The corners and ends of the letters are “squared off”.
B91C20B5-B753-4D47-8CA9-251FF307B0E4.png
B91C20B5-B753-4D47-8CA9-251FF307B0E4.png (232.89 KiB) Viewed 76 times
Your second question was answered in a prior post.

The age of a knife has no bearing on whether its tangs have been shaved. The area where the tang ends and blade begins is called the shoulder grind. On most grinds it’s a line (shoulder) going across the blade from edge to spine, and it appears on both sides of the blade. (Some blade grinds like saber grind for example are the exception). When the tang is grinded or “shaved” to remove the original stamp, metal is removed. When metal is removed some of the shoulder is removed, this is typically manifested in the disappearance of the shoulder as it nears the blade spine. As it disappears the line often has an upward curve as it nears the spine. Heavy buffing can sometimes blur the shoulder grind line (and the stamp) as well. Your knife exhibits the disappearing shoulder grind line and upward curve characteristic of a shaved tang. Again, age has nothing to do with it. Typically if you simply turn the blade over and look at the back (pile) side you’ll see what the unshaved tang looked like, with a grind line going across all the way.

Hope you find that helpful, but there’s no substitute for handling and studying as many knives as possible. At some point you’ll have looked at enough to develop a “6th sense” and can quickly spot a fake.

Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.

When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.

https://www.akti.org/

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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Whitneyrifle » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:41 am

Here are closeup photos of the pins….
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ScoutKnives
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by ScoutKnives » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:24 pm

The center pin is clearly shown in these pictures as spun , you can see the circular marks from the process on the bone and pins .
It’s still a very nice knife , carry and enjoy it .

Mike
Always looking for Mint pre war scout knives

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Whitneyrifle
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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by Whitneyrifle » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:41 pm

ThNk you, I do!
You have to be trusted by the people that lie to you. So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in….

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Re: Union knifeworks N.Y.C. Is this real? Info plz

Post by peanut740 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:25 am

The bone is not of the era.It is also poorly fitted to the bolsters.The center pin is obviously spun.Tangs are shaved an cold stamped,and not centered correctly.Kicks on the tangs have been monkeyed with to make them fit.It all adds up to be a cobbled knife.Take it back,or put it in your pocket and use it.
Roger

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