Western states suspicious tang stamping .

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Thomasg
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Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Need pictures of both blades and a clearer picture of the handle covers to definitively ID the knife. Pictures of a cellphone picture from another source fade the color of the covers.

The stamps are legitimate. At one time the main blade had the tic-tac-toe etch. Remnants of the etch MAY be visible.

From what I can tell, it is a 1921 to 1930 R-243 "bullhead jack" with white striped red pyraline covers.

"Bullhead" was Western's early name for has come to be known as "equal ended". Either the pics are fading out the color or the red color had shifted to a muddy brown. This model number is the only one that comes close to matching the apparent handle covers.
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

I suspect that celluloid color may have been called "agate." Here is an example.
agate Western States hunter003.jpg
agate Western States hunter004 (Large).JPG
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btrwtr
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by btrwtr »

I like the handle material but that’s about all. Several years ago there was a rash of fake Weatern States knives being sold on eBay by a couple different sellers. Many wth the Buffalo head stamps on back of tangs. Can’t be sure from the pictures but I think suspicious is the right title for this thread.
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Hey, Wayne. I was unaware of fakes on fleabay as I don't collect folders and never search for them or look up any info on them. The stamps do look a bit cold. Just another reason to stay with fixed blades.
Thomasg
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

Pictures are snap shots of knife offered 4 sale on e-bay .I have several western states knifes none of them have the buffalo head stamped on the back side tang of the master blade .I do have a couple with partial etching of a buffalo head left on the master blade .in my go to reference book the knife makers who went west I can find no mention of a buffalo head being used as stamping on the front or back side of the tang on any blade .
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

I am not an expert on Westerns but I have handled a dozen or so folders and looked at many hundreds on Ebay. Those hideous tang stamps look like they were done by the Flintstones. And I have never seen a buffalo head on the tang of a Western.
Thomasg
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

tongueriver wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pm I suspect that celluloid color may have been called "agate." Here is an example.
agate Western States hunter003.jpgagate Western States hunter004 (Large).JPG
I have been looking for a western states with agate scales for awhile.like the dynamite knife ,the easy open model they are very scarce and most likely priced over what I would like to spend when and if I ever do run across one of them .lol
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btrwtr
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by btrwtr »

Here is one of the pictures from the eBay sale. The punch blade is poorly fitted and looks to open past the 180 degree plane. Punch blades that are stamped are an exception rather than the rule. Just one more strike against this knife imo.
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knifeaholic
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by knifeaholic »

tongueriver wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:18 am I am not an expert on Westerns but I have handled a dozen or so folders and looked at many hundreds on Ebay. Those hideous tang stamps look like they were done by the Flintstones. And I have never seen a buffalo head on the tang of a Western.
I'm not speaking either way about the OP knife, but I recently owned a Western Boulder (not Western States) stamped stockman with the buffalo or steer skull stamped on the back tang of the main blade.
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

Is it practical to show it, Eric?
Thomasg
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

Knife shield from O.P.
Knife shield from O.P.
O.P. Knife shield does not match any of the shields in the knife makers who went west
Western states shield (knife makers who went west
Western states shield (knife makers who went west
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dsutton24
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by dsutton24 »

I agree that the knife shown in the OP is most likely a counterfeit.

I do want to point out, though, that The Knifemakers Who Went West is more of an ode to Harvey Platts and Western States than a reference work. It's not exhaustive, and if you try to date many Westerns based on the tang stamp information Knifemakers provides you'll very often miss by several decades.

I've been a Western collector for many years. I know that accurate information on Westerns is very hard to come by, especially when it comes to minutia.
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Thomasg wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:28 am 701AF4B3-3EAF-44ED-A9F5-8B209F01457C.pngO.P. Knife shield does not match any of the shields in the knife makers who went westB63434DC-C74C-433C-946A-C144377EF546.png
The shield was one thing that I did question when researching the OP knife.

I did find 1 example of the OP knife's shield in the 1931 catalog on the 53103. Never shown before or after, including the 1925 catalog that was not included in the TKMWWW.

The 53103 was a 3 bladed, 4-5/8" Cattle knife that doesn't quite have a Cattle Knife profile. It kinda looks like a Cattle Knife (typically an"equal ended" 3 blade knife) that has had one end slimmed down or a Stock knife, (typically a 3 bladed knife that has a slight "S-shaped" profile) that has been straightened out(no curve).

12462
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by zzyzzogeton »

And a new tidbit about the shield - found similar shields on a couple of knives from the 1902 Sears catalog, the 28T912 Wild West Cowboy's knife, which is a 3 blade Cattle knife and the 28T920 Hunter's Pride knife, which is a large 2 bladed jack knife.

The body of the OP's knife resembles the body of the Hunter's Pride knife in being straight bodies and unequal ends.

Wild West Cowboys' knife
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Hunter's Pride jack knife
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What's interesting to me is that sometime between 1902 and 1919, what was called a "Cowboy's knife", got a new name as a "Cattle knife". Another investigative rathole to crawl into to determine when the change happened.
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

Nowadays we might have to call them 'cowperson's knife. Don't want to risk a lawsuit.
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peanut740
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by peanut740 »

Here's a full size Western States stockman I have that has the Buffalo head on the back of all blades,that is correct.
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

Thank you, peanut; good information to save right there. ::tu::
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btrwtr
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by btrwtr »

Nice looking stockman. The buffalo skull stamps look much better on this knife.
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Colonel26
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Colonel26 »

Well, I thought I had an old Western Boulder with that shield. But as usual I was mistaken. The closest I can come is this old Boulder whittler.
DAE81464-DF46-4E5B-A476-2757DDB11731.jpeg
For the record, my opinion only, the stamp on the op knife just looks wrong to me.
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btrwtr
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by btrwtr »

Somehow I forgot about this Western stockman I have with the Buffalo skull on the back of 2 blades. All blades are stamped with the Western States stamp on tangs. Big difference in these nicely and neatly stamped Buffalo skulls on this and Roger's stockman and the OP knife.
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tongueriver
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by tongueriver »

Now that's more like it! ::tu::
Thomasg
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

Colonel26 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:41 am Well, I thought I had an old Western Boulder with that shield. But as usual I was mistaken. The closest I can come is this old Boulder whittler.

DAE81464-DF46-4E5B-A476-2757DDB11731.jpeg

For the record, my opinion only, the stamp on the op knife just looks wrong to me.
This may be the rarest one I have seen with the buffalo head tang stamp floating the e-bay . What y’all think about this one?
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btrwtr
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by btrwtr »

I generally associate the buffalo skull stamps with earlier Western States stamped knives. The knife, handle material all look fine though so I would guess this is a later knife with the earlier buffalo skull stamping.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Wayne

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Thomasg
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Re: Western states suspicious tang stamping .

Post by Thomasg »

btrwtr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:45 am I generally associate the buffalo skull stamps with earlier Western States stamped knives. The knife, handle material all look fine though so I would guess this is a later knife with the earlier buffalo skull stamping.
The build and scales look okay to me .the tang stampings like you pointed out are not normally associated from the same time period .The show side tang WESTERN /BOULDER CO. With the slash separating the wording is one I have not seen before ???? I never gave to much thought that someone would counterfeit a knife that would sell for less than 100 $ until I purchased one and had it in hand .
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