Parts Knife Fiasco!

[Robo]

This parts knife has been sold and re-sold in the past couple months but bad things come in threes so this time we'll be ready for it. The blade is from a Blue Grass Cutlery re-issue of what should be the Walden Cut Co made Winchester Powder horn pattern # 1936. But of course isn't anything like that knife at all. Blue Grass's Knives have always been High Quality. But In the case of the Toothpicks they released as "Case Classics" as well as the ones they released as "Winchesters" there's no resemblance to the original. The flat ground clip blade is off a handle much like KA-Bar's "Pirate Switch" folder. Yes, that was the actual name of the knife before some collector--out of ignorance-- decided to call knives like this "barn door hinge" (shiver me timbers...) and unfortunately that corny name stuck. The pattern number on this knife is:10034 1/2. it is from 1998

The frame is from a Western States single blade tickler/toothpick circa 1921-1940. Western States contracted Utica and American Shear & Knife Co. to make what they called their "Tango" folder (awesome name).Then some time afterwards, when the Boulder Factory was up and running they created their own version of the tickler pattern that blows most--maybe all-- the competition out of the water. Unfortunately all their creativity went into the build and not the name. They called this one..."Fishing Knife" (sigh) Sargants features one with yet another name in the 4th Edition of his book but I'm not sure if it was ever produced in large numbers or at all. They called it "East Dallace Special" (again--awesome name). I'm not sure what would complete my life more, a minty version of the Western States "East Dallace Speacial" or Welder Bob's "Lucky Dice" 4 line Camillus toothy. But I digress... Take note that this particular Western States knife is an advertising knife. I've discovered several of these archived on "Worth Point"--all avertising the same disinfectant company in Missouri. (not a very noble thing to do to such a lovely knife, turning it into a billboard...)

Remember: There is no shame in the parts knife game. If you really want to get to know a particular knife break a couple broken ones down to parts, replace the bad with the good and re-build. It's a great feeling-- quite edifying and a potential source of EDCs. But don't turn around and try to sell it as the original on the Bay! or you'll end up here being looked down upon by a jury of your peers.

Here are a couple shots from each of the sales of this same parts knife, and a couple of ones like the knives they were taken from. plus a shot of a Genuine Winchester Powder Horn #1936 and another Western States, this one with a long clip blade.

PS: I always try to keep in mind that the seller may have no idea what he or she is selling. The important thing is to become an informed buyer.

[FRJ]

Very good post, Robo. You have a lot of good information on these knives as to names and collusion of makers.

I used the term "barn door hinge" in your other post. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to shiver your timbers.
As a carpenter, I thought it was a pretty neat name. I'm glad someone didn't call it a "strap hinge", which would have been more
appropriate to the design.
It's interesting to see that Western States contracted with Utica and American shear & knife.

[Robo]

Very good post, Robo. You have a lot of good information on these knives as to names and collusion of makers.

I used the term "barn door hinge" in your other post. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to shiver your timbers.
As a carpenter, I thought it was a pretty neat name. I'm glad someone didn't call it a "strap hinge", which would have been more
appropriate to the design.
It's interesting to see that Western States contracted with Utica and American shear & knife.

Arrrggghhh! No worries FRJ, I may have over stated my feelings there. My pleasure comes from the research, the digging. Any small discovery and I'm jacked. I'm grateful to have a place to share this stuff. Like I was looking at the post on Rogers Bone and someone mention the "The 1922 "American Cutler" available on Google Books and I've been reading it all night--awesome! Thanks, Brother.

[FRJ]

Robo, you have a passion for the "knife", and that's a good thing.
I enjoy your posts.

[Gunsil]

Just a note that the Pirate Switch was not the only KA-BAR with that unique bolster. KA-BAR also made a larger tickler with that bolster called "Captain's Switch". Also wondering why you say the Western States Tango was made by Utica and American Shear?? I seriously doubt both manufacturers would make the same knife on contract. Also American went out of business in 1914. I also have a barn door bolster tickler marked Western States that was made for them on contract by Union Cut/KA-BAR who did other contract work for Western States.

[Robo]

Just a note that the Pirate Switch was not the only KA-BAR with that unique bolster. KA-BAR also made a larger tickler with that bolster called "Captain's Switch". Also wondering why you say the Western States Tango was made by Utica and American Shear?? I seriously doubt both manufacturers would make the same knife on contract. Also American went out of business in 1914. I also have a barn door bolster tickler marked Western States that was made for them on contract by Union Cut/KA-BAR who did other contract work for Western States.

Gunsil--was the "Captain's Switch" the same basic pattern as the "Pirate Switch"? I recently acquired a super slim--melon tester thin--Kabar with thinner "Sea Chest Hinge" bolsters, with the same patent date as the P-Switch. Can't read the tang stamp and there's no etch. (See pic) Now I'm thinking it might be the Captain's Switch! That would be amazing. Thanks for the heads up and any more info you can provide!

RE: Western States #6175 "Tango" I can verify that Utica made these at some point in time because I have one (it's in parts but I'll include a photo) they also at some point made the smaller #61075 (see photo). The reason I say "at some point" is because my Utica doesn't look like the 6175 in the 1921 catalog (p. 98 The Knife Makers Who Went West; p. 363 The Big Book Of Pocket Knives) There are no 6175s in the 1919 Catalog. The next Catalog skips a decade to 1931. By then They were making their own 6175 which is the one pictured above. The problem for me is--like i said-- that the print of the Tango in the 1921 catalog supplement doesn't look like a Utica and it is listed as being 5 1/8". My Utica measures 5".

Some conclusions I've pondered then dismissed: 1) The print is a drawing and not photo so ignore it. 2) the measurement is simply wrong, so ignore it 3) The drawing is of another company's knife W.S. was contracting from in 1921 and it wasn't Utica. If that were so I would have picked Challang Cut Co. because the one I have looks a lot like the drawing (see picture). But WS supposedly only contracted Razors from Challenge and I've since determined that Challange Contracted their toothpick/ ticklers-- from other companies so why would WS contract a knife from a company that contracted the knife themselves?

So I've been trying to find out who Challenge contracted the knife I had from because it looks a lot like the one depicted in the WS 1921 supplement. American Shear & Knife Co. was on my list of possibilities because it contracted to WS! ( page 54 of "The Knife Makers Who Went west"). You are correct, Goins does say they shut down in 1914. But WS was up and running as a jobber before that and they did do business with them. But after further reflection, it makes no sense that the 6175 listed in 1921 would be from Amer. Shear & knife--thanks for bringing that up.

RE: Two manufacturers making same knife on contract: To be clear, I wasn't implying they contracted them at the same time. The gaps are too large and the catalog pages too few in the only real source I have-- "The Knifemakers Who went West"-- to understand what was made when or by whom. Utica did and whoever made the knife in the picture from the 1921 catalog suplement did--that's for sure--figuring out who that was is the mission! Any intel you might provide would be truly appreciated.

[Gunsil]

I would say you have a Captain's Switch there!! there should be a long celluloid spacer at the bottom of the knife because the handle is longer than the blade. I have seen one in clear blue cell etched, and mine is yellow cell, etch worn off.
I have a 1925 Western States catalog and price list which also lists Tango 6175 as 5&1/8". It also lists a Tango 61075 at 4&1/4". I do have KWWW and am unsure of some of the facts represented there. All the manufacturers listed may not have supplied western with knives, some or most may have just supplied razors or scissors. KWWW doesn't mention KA-BAR, yet I have KA-BAR made Western States marked knives. I also have Western States hunting knives by KA-BAR, Case/Kinfolks, and Marbles.
That's a nice looking Pirate Switch you have there and I like the mottled handle on the Captain's Switch.

[peanut740]

Union Cut/Kabar supplied several patterns for Western States.I've had several Dogs head folding hunters with a Western States stamp.After all they were family/related.

[Gunsil]

I have had a Western States doggie too and seen others. I think all Western States earlier folding hunters were Union Cut/KA-BAR products, they all seem to match in pattern, size, and dentate pulls. I think KA-BAR supplied a lot of knives in a lot of patterns for Western in the early days.

[Gunsil]

Here is my Western States KA-BAR tickler. It was made for the Buffalo Bill museum so the museum contracted with Western who farmed it out to KA-BAR.

[kootenay joe]

I am in awe of the amount of very specific knife knowledge in this thread. In awe of those who can post this degree of in depth detail.
kj

[Robo]

I would say you have a Captain's Switch there!! there should be a long celluloid spacer at the bottom of the knife because the handle is longer than the blade. I have seen one in clear blue cell etched, and mine is yellow cell, etch worn off.
I have a 1925 Western States catalog and price list which also lists Tango 6175 as 5&1/8". It also lists a Tango 61075 at 4&1/4". I do have KWWW and am unsure of some of the facts represented there. All the manufacturers listed may not have supplied western with knives, some or most may have just supplied razors or scissors. KWWW doesn't mention KA-BAR, yet I have KA-BAR made Western States marked knives. I also have Western States hunting knives by KA-BAR, Case/Kinfolks, and Marbles.
That's a nice looking Pirate Switch you have there and I like the mottled handle on the Captain's Switch.

Oh, man, thanks!!! So great to have Ided. this KA-BAR! yup, it's got the crazy spacer (mine moves around) and everything. Re: the rest: I believe we are extremely lucky to be collecting in the age of the internet. When I think of what Goins must of had to do to compile the info in his book my head spins. I feel uncontented that I have yet to discover the origins of my favorite pattern (at least the manufacturer). This is what I'm working towards and I refuse to believe that it's less possible to do because more distance has been put between me and that point in time. Why? Because collectively thru forums like this I think we might just be able to build a bridge back. There's exactly one "Buffalo Bill" folder on Worthpoint. I'm constantly pouring over my saved searches and I was begining to suspect that it was a fake. Now I know that this isn't so and my knowledge of the pattern has been increased another tiny bit forward. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

[Gunsil]

The little spacer moves on my Captain's Switch too, I don't think it did when new. I consider the Captain Switch a fairly rare KA-BAR, I have only seen a few in over fifty years of collecting knives. I didn't try to wiggle the spacer on the mint one I saw, it was on a dealer's table for big bucks. I had a different WS Buffalo Bill knife, a little two blade pen knife but I gave it to a friend so they made at least two models for the museum. Both my WS Buffalo Bill knives were shown in Knife Magazine last year in Bernard Levine's column, you could see the little one there if you have a copy.

[Gunsil]

Just found pics of the little WS Buffalo Bill.

[Robo]

The little spacer moves on my Captain's Switch too, I don't think it did when new. I consider the Captain Switch a fairly rare KA-BAR, I have only seen a few in over fifty years of collecting knives. I didn't try to wiggle the spacer on the mint one I saw, it was on a dealer's table for big bucks. I had a different WS Buffalo Bill knife, a little two blade pen knife but I gave it to a friend so they made at least two models for the museum. Both my WS Buffalo Bill knives were shown in Knife Magazine last year in Bernard Levine's column, you could see the little one there if you have a copy.

Question: Does yours have a discernible tang stamp? I've been wondering if mine was a contract knife for someone who just asked for their trademark to be etched on the blade like I hear Sears did at some point. Think this is possible?

Thanks for the pics! SAFE HOLIDAYS BROS!

[Robo]

Union Cut/Kabar supplied several patterns for Western States.I've had several Dogs head folding hunters with a Western States stamp.After all they were family/related.

Hey, man, I read this and then, sure enough, one just popped up on The Bay! Big hunter. Thanks for the info.

[Gunsil]

The little spacer moves on my Captain's Switch too, I don't think it did when new. I consider the Captain Switch a fairly rare KA-BAR, I have only seen a few in over fifty years of collecting knives. I didn't try to wiggle the spacer on the mint one I saw, it was on a dealer's table for big bucks. I had a different WS Buffalo Bill knife, a little two blade pen knife but I gave it to a friend so they made at least two models for the museum. Both my WS Buffalo Bill knives were shown in Knife Magazine last year in Bernard Levine's column, you could see the little one there if you have a copy.

Question: Does yours have a discernible tang stamp? I've been wondering if mine was a contract knife for someone who just asked for their trademark to be etched on the blade like I hear Sears did at some point. Think this is possible?

Thanks for the pics! SAFE HOLIDAYS BROS!

If you are referring to the Captain Switch, yes mine is marked (stamped) KA-BAR as have been the few others I have seen. I have seen very few KA-BARs that weren't tang stamped but I have seen lightly stamped ones and worn off ones. I only have one KA-BAR (a hunting knife) that has a retailer's etch on it and no KA-BAR stamp. but I have many with retailer's etches AND the KA-BAR stamp. Back in the day KA-BAR would etch anything you wanted on a blade (your name, company name, etc) for 50 cents per knife. That WS doggie on the bay has been there for a while.