New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

A place to discuss & share pictures of counterfeit knives. Please be sure to alert the AAPK community if you spot one. Also make sure to ask questions if you are not certain about the authenticity of a knife you are considering buying or selling. There are plenty of great people here willing to help.
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Sheamo
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New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Hello all,

I came to AAPK to buy a knife and ended up doing so. I found out there was a forum from a couple links that were under my purchase. I read a few articles that unnerved me about a recent eBay purchase I made. I'm posting to ask for help. Can anyone please confirm that this knife is a genuine 1920-1940's Case knife?
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Sorry, but the knife has been re-handled at best. Most of the Barlow patterns during the Tested era had bone handles, to my knowledge none have yellow synthetic handles. The knife has also been extensively buffed to make it ”shiny”. Note the pitting on the tang area around the stamp still has the telltale pitting - the entire blades likely were similarly pitted from rust but have been buffed to remove the rust, patina and pits. In the process that removes a lot of the original metal. Case made several different Barlow patterns - need to know the knife’s closed length to determine which one that is.

Welcome to AAPK.

Ken
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Madmarco
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Madmarco »

::welcome:: to AAPK Sheamo! I can't help with the authenticity of your knife, but stick around for a definitive answer because there are many Case collectors here who will have the info you seek. 8)
8)
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Thank you for the information and the welcome to the forum Ken and Marco. I requested a return on the knife for the reasons I learned here. Thankfully, it was instantly approved. Am I correct in assuming a knife like this has little to no value and if proudly shown off to a knowledgeable knife person it would only get me the same thing I got here in a "Sorry to tell ya..."?

P.S.

Just got a message from the seller. He claims he was told this was an original knife. I don't know if I believe that someone with a long history of selling Case knives and who carries the stock this person carries would be so easily fooled by something that others find so obviously re-handled and altered. Am I assuming too much in your opinions? I'm trying to determine whether I am being dealt with honestly to decide if I would ever buy from this seller again.
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edge213
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by edge213 »

I believe the op knife may not have been rehandled, but highly polished.
Here is one that I have.
3 1/16.
Though I could be wrong.
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David
"Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife" Meat Loaf
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Update:

The seller has provided more information. He states there are many knives Case made such as special orders, company knives, unique knives, that are not on the radar of even the more knowledgeable collectors. He does admit to having the knife extensively cleaned by someone and also adds the knife cleaner themselves suggested it is authentic. Lastly, he shares what he believes the knife is (Case imitation ivory Barlow) and points it out in Tony Fosters price guide. I did notice the guide has the knife he is putting forward as this particular knife noted in the book is 3 1/16 inches and the knife in hand is 3 1/4 inches. Is that a tip off it's not the same knife? Thoughts?
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Update #2

More emails and information has been shared from the seller. Some of it convincing enough to make me pause. Attached are two pictures he shared with me to help validate the knifes authenticity. If in fact the knife I bought is legit, my last question is how much worth has it lost by being cleaned the way it has. Two price guides have this knife at $500-$600 but I assume this is in "MINT" condition. Any educated guesses on the worth of this particular knife? And I mean to say I'm looking for an estimate on the knife I bought which was the one I posted in the OP. Not the knife pictured below.

I love the look of the knife and like to see it set beside my other Case Barlows. Being those are mostly red bone, dark bovine horn, and delrin, it's a nice contrast to see this imitation ivory laid next to the others. I'd almost keep it just for my sheer enjoyment of looking at it. Worth is secondary. I wonder if anyone knows how hard these are to find?

Thanks everyone for you contributions thus far!

Regards,

Shea
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knifeaholic
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by knifeaholic »

I have owned several Tested barlows with white handles, so that is not an issue. Knife has been cleaned and polished.
Steve Pfeiffer, author of Collecting Case Knives: Identification and Price Guide published by Krause Publications.
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

knifeaholic wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm I have owned several Tested barlows with white handles, so that is not an issue. Knife has been cleaned and polished.
Thank you Steve. I'd like to get an idea of what cleaning and polishing actually does to value. If this knife is $500-$600 in the more well known price guides as "MINT" then what is a educated guess on it's value in the shape it's in and after being cleaned and polished? Assume good functionality and go on pure cosmetics. Does the value go down 25%? 50%? 75%? What's a good estimate of diminished value on a cleaning and polishing?
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sweetpieces4you »

Hi Shea, I also own the knife in question with those exact same handles ::tu:: Unfortunately, I don’t post pictures of my personal property that is not for sale ::tu:: And yes the blades have been heavily polished and according to you the seller told you that ::tu:: It’s still a Nice old knife !! The decision to keep it is yours and yours alone !!
Values vary, knife to knife and person to person !! You know the knife is legitimate and if you like it , keep it , if you don’t , you have the option to send it back ::tu:: I will tell you tho , they don’t pop up everyday ::tu:: Take Care Shea
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by kootenay joe »

I am not a Case collector but i can say that the vast majority of experienced knife collectors will not buy a buffed knife at any price. They do not want a buffed knife.
However there are other collectors who really like shiny blades and often will pay quite a high price for a heavily buffed knife. These tend to be collectors who read and believe whatever is stamped on the tang so they tend to have fakes in their collection.
kj
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sweetpieces4you »

The knife in question is Not Counterfeit !! It has been established the knife was clearly polished !! And as far as collecting goes “To Each His Own” ::tu:: But, if not for polishing some of these old knives they would no longer exist !!
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

It seems the consensus is the handle covers are original to the knife, and are (or were) white synthetic. Therefore my previous assessment that it has been re-handled is incorrect. Still no reply regarding the knife’s closed length so I guess everyone assumes it to be a 42009-1/2 (the reference shown has a listing for “42009 Barlow, spear master” - which fits the knife shown by David).

I put little stock in printed price reference guides but those I have state that simply sharpening the blades devalues the knife by 50%, and it decreases from there (for whatever that’s worth). Difficult to value knives having very few or no recent comparable sales. If you’re happy with the knife and satisfied with what you paid for it, that’s what matters. It may be a long time before you see another like it. I have some that were far less than perfect (or even excellent) when I bought them. I bought them anyway knowing I might never find another.

Ken
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by edge213 »

I paid $40 for mine.
I would think the OP knife would be about a $75 knife.
Just my opinion.
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Mumbleypeg wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:35 pm It seems the consensus is the handle covers are original to the knife, and are (or were) white synthetic. Therefore my previous assessment that it has been re-handled is incorrect. Still no reply regarding the knife’s closed length so I guess everyone assumes it to be a 42009-1/2 (the reference shown has a listing for “42009 Barlow, spear master” - which fits the knife shown by David).

I put little stock in printed price reference guides but those I have state that simply sharpening the blades devalues the knife by 50%, and it decreases from there (for whatever that’s worth). Difficult to value knives having very few or no recent comparable sales. If you’re happy with the knife and satisfied with what you paid for it, that’s what matters. It may be a long time before you see another like it. I have some that were far less than perfect (or even excellent) when I bought them. I bought them anyway knowing I might never find another.

Ken
I did add the closed length in the one post with the price guide pic. I had some questions about it since my knife was not the length mentioned. Any thoughts now that you have that info?
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Thanks to everyone for all your help and opinions! Feels great to have a place to go for answers and discussion. I appreciate you all! The seller has been helpful and left the return for me to decide so we'll see. The consensus seems to be it's authentic and I really like the look of it and the contrast of colors I have when lining it up with my others. I will most likely keep the knife at this point but I need to sleep on it. I did not know and was not told it was so heavily cleaned and polished. I'll know better what to look for myself next time thanks to help I got in this thread.

That being said, does anyone have a knife like this they would like to sell? As some of you shared, it's good to keep your best until you do better. I'd like to take my shot to find one I love even more. Feel free to PM or DM me.

Shea
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Sheamo wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:22 am

I did add the closed length in the one post with the price guide pic. I had some questions about it since my knife was not the length mentioned. Any thoughts now that you have that info?
What I’m seeing in the picture from the price guide you posted says 3-1/2 inches. I dug out some guides I have and find that Sargent’s shows both 3-5/16 (in the lists) and 3-3/8 (caption under a picture) for the 62009. Sargent’s shows the knife only with bone covers. The C. Houston Price guide 1997 edition shows 62009 to be 3-5/16 inch and also lists it only in bone. The Parker guide (2001 edition) lists the 42009-1/2 Im Ivory as 3-5/16 inches.

In my experience the measurements shown in references often come from old factory catalogs, and a variance of 1/16 or even 1/8 inch (sometimes but rarely more) versus a knife in hand is not uncommon. You indicated your knife measures 3-1/4 - I wouldn’t obsess over a difference of only 1/16 of an inch.

Ken
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Dan In MI
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Dan In MI »

Mumbleypeg wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:09 pm In my experience the measurements shown in references often come from old factory catalogs, and a variance of 1/16 or even 1/8 inch (sometimes but rarely more) versus a knife in hand is not uncommon.
Have you observed that to be true with blade lengths as well?
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Dan In MI wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:35 pm
Mumbleypeg wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:09 pm In my experience the measurements shown in references often come from old factory catalogs, and a variance of 1/16 or even 1/8 inch (sometimes but rarely more) versus a knife in hand is not uncommon.
Have you observed that to be true with blade lengths as well?
Yes. And blade lengths on used knives are all over the place. Both depend to some degree on sharpening. Measurements can vary somewhat depending on the points on the object where the measurements are made, the angle of viewing, etc. Most folks including me typically just place the item on a ruler of tape measure (or visa versa) and read what they see. A caliper is more precise but even that can depend on where the measurement is taken. Some knives can even have unusual shaped bolsters, so where to measure? Where did the other guy whose measurement is being referenced measure? On blades, was the referenced measurement from the shoulder grind to the tip? Or from the bolster to the tip? Or other?

That’s why your measurement and my measurement may not agree with what’s in the book, or even with with each other. :lol: And that’s why I said I wouldn’t obsess over a sixteenth, or even an eighth of an inch. JMO

Ken
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Dan In MI
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Dan In MI »

Mumbleypeg wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:41 pm Where to measure?
Good question. I measured four of my knives, eight blades total. Each was measured from tip to the point that the tang meets the spring, and then just the cutting edge. Case's specs fell between each of my measurements in all cases. But since my interest in this subject is not for purposes of determining authenticity, it's probably best to start a new topic.
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by Sheamo »

Just to close this out on my end I did end up keeping the knife. I figured it was cleaned up when I bought it (although I did not know to what extent since I am new to all this and was only recently educated on what to look for) so that didn't bother me with this particular knife. To add to that, the seller went above and beyond by not only offering an easy return but he also took quite bit of time researching and sharing information to help me find the answers I was looking for. So, it all worked out. Thanks to everyone involved in this discussion and for all the help that was given to me to help me learn more about collecting vintage knives.

Shea
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by charlesf20 »

Good call.
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Re: New to forum, hoping for confirmation.

Post by kootenay joe »

This seller seems to be a very conscientious person who spent a fair bit of time helping you learn about this knife. The knife parts are all original to each other. The only 'downside' is the blades have been buffed. To a purist this is a serious 'flaw'. However to many other collectors this is an improvement. What matters here is that you like this knife. It speaks to you. This is an excellent reason for keeping this knife.
When times come for you to sell, if you find one of the collectors who prefers shiny buffed blades you might well sell it at a profit.
kj
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