KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

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Yomagn'tho
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KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by Yomagn'tho »

Hello All, some years back I became very interested in knife steel, specifically in how the different elements within the steel determined how they functioned, as well as how steel is made from the extraction of the ore, to forging, to heat treating, etc. I dived in to this field and read manufacturer data sheets which then lead to me reading literature on the various testing methods like Izod and Charpy impact testing, corrosion testing and the solutions used, I read scientific papers on the various elements in the steel especially Nickel and Nitrogen and how those elements react to each other, I read all about carbide formation and the different types of steel (such as Austenitic and Ferritic).

After all this research and cross referencing I decided to develop formulas that would accurately determine how a steel should perform in four important areas that impact knife users; Edge Retention, Ease of Sharpening, Corrosion Resistance, and Toughness (Ductility). I did this for two reasons, one being that when looking at knife steel ratings from various people and websites they were all very subjective and contradictory. This was in-part because they were not looking at the steel alone, but individual representative knives (which comes with some serious caveats which I will get into later). The other reason I did this was because I had already consumed a lot of info and wanted to put that knowledge to the test.

Before I post the tables I want to get into why comparing knives themselves is problematic as opposed to the steel by itself, and why I had to remove important elements from the formulas I used.

1. Quality Control: Unfortunately there are naturally going to be differences in the quality of knives produced, starting all the way back from roughly the beginning with ore extraction, followed by forging, followed by heat treating, followed by the knife design, etc. The same exact steel can be wildly different in performance depending on the degree of quality control through even just one phase of development. A good example of this is found with 440C, a steel that was "high end" when it was released but is now considered "budget" and unfortunately treated as such by manufacturers. I have observed a wide range of quality with 440C from older examples being really good to more modern stuff being actual junk, and everything in-between.
2. The Metallurgy Process: Not all processes are the same and thus not all steels are the same even if the chemical composition is the same. As an example the difference in performance between 154CM and CPM 154 is maybe not night-and-day but is considerable, and this is simply due to the fact that CPM 154 uses Particle Metallurgy (PM) for the molding process as opposed to a more traditional method for 154CM. The process Crucible uses creates a much more uniform (homogenous) carbide structure. In more conventional methods the carbide structure will be more irregular and less uniform and this has an impact on how the steel will perform. Add to this the amount of different processes that can be used (particle, powder, spray form, magnetic, etc.) and we can start seeing real differences in the steel despite the same composition of elements.
3. Heat Treat: Even if the quality of the steel formation was exceptional, heat treat can make or break a knife. If the heat treat was poorly done you can have irregularities in the hardness of the blade with portions being harder or softer than they should be. Even if the treat was uniform it can be undone if the blade is under-hardened or over-hardened. CPM S110V should be an excellent wear resistant (edge retention) but largely non-ductile (toughness) steel under quality treating, but if it was treated to a HR of 45 its edge retention would be laughable and it would be more ductile (great if that was the purpose of the steel, but it is not).
4. Blade Construction: Not only are quality and evenness important but so to is the grind and blade geometries. Angle of the edge can make a larger impact on edge retention, more then most would think.

For my formulas I could not factor the above things into them, as there is simply no way to account for all the variables and any values I came up with would be arbitrary. I didn't even mention the natural purity of some ores versus others :roll:. Given all this the formulas only use the elements (Carbon, Chromium, Tungsten, Nitrogen, etc.) in the steel to create a score for grading. Certain things get underrepresented (like CPM S110V on Corrosion Resistance) due to not accounting for their carbide uniformity or other factors (Heat Treat namely), but I feel the formula works exceptionally well for ball parking observed performance regardless.

One last note, the lower the number for the Grade the better that steel is, the higher the number the worse it is.
"But men labor under a mistake. The better part of the man is soon plowed into the soil for compost." Henry David Thoreau
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Yomagn'tho
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by Yomagn'tho »

TABLES
Attachments
Corrosion Resistance.jpg
Ease of Sharpening.jpg
Edge Retention.jpg
Toughness.jpg
"But men labor under a mistake. The better part of the man is soon plowed into the soil for compost." Henry David Thoreau
Reverand
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by Reverand »

Wow, very thorough research!
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tongueriver
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by tongueriver »

That is amazing! But you forgot to include Pakistani car bumper and re-bar?
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by LDF Knives »

Awesomesauce Info! Wish there was a printout of every knife made! ::tu::
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Thanks for confirming that regardless the makeup of the steel, for use in knife blades the hardening and tempering will make or break it. ::doh:: Far too many obsess over and even brag about what steel is in their knife.

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Yomagn'tho
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Re: KNIFE STEEL: Comprehensive Tables for Enlightenment

Post by Yomagn'tho »

tongueriver wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:09 pm That is amazing! But you forgot to include Pakistani car bumper and re-bar?
Lol....I also forgot to include "antique railroad spike" and "Uncle Joe's mystery box of strange metal objects"... :lol:
by Mumbleypeg » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:52 am

Thanks for confirming that regardless the makeup of the steel, for use in knife blades the hardening and tempering will make or break it. ::doh:: Far too many obsess over and even brag about what steel is in their knife.
I agree, I understand singing the praises of one steel over another especially when discussing specific characteristics (like corrosion resistance as an example) but obsessing over it and bragging is silly. One of my most used knives is a Cold Steel in a "budget" steel (4116) that cost all of 20 some odd dollars, and I don't lose sleep over the fact 4116 isn't a "boutique" steel like CPM 20CV or the newest and greatest steel. Do I have 20CV and other "high end" steels, yep, but at the end of the day even the more simpler steels have plenty of value.

Going further with this, a quality custom knife maker can make simpler steels like AEB-L, AUS-8, and others really come alive and compete and even defeat the higher end steels from major manufacturers. Custom knife makers aren't mass producing the knives and spend the time and attention to really do an exceptional heat treat that you usually don't find on the mass produced knives. They also like to work with the same steel which helps them really understand how to work said steel and bring out the best in it (like Bob Dozier with D2).
by Reverand » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:00 am

Wow, very thorough research!
Thanks! ::tu::
by LDF Knives » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:46 am

Awesomesauce Info! Wish there was a printout of every knife made! ::tu::
I used Excel to create this, so it is easy for me to input any steel that has a listing of its chemical composition. Name a steel and I can let you know where it falls on my scoring system.
"But men labor under a mistake. The better part of the man is soon plowed into the soil for compost." Henry David Thoreau
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