Hen and Roosters with this tang stamp

[Sharpnshinyknives]

I ordered a H&R Congress the other day and was deeply disappointed with the quality. This one has a suspect tang stamp. It’s not marked Bertram Cutlery and the model number, or Bertram Cutlery Rostfrie and then the model number. This one says Bertram Cutlery Germany, see photo. The box has the California warning about cancer so I know it’s a fairly new production since the older models don’t have this warning on the box. The box says made in Germany but the quality is simply not there. Gaps between the liners and backsprings. There were dots on the main blade that looked like it wasn’t buffed properly or else there are impurities in the metal. Gap between the bone handles and liners filled with glue. Rough area on the backsprings from bad polishing and rough edges where the bone handles are not smooth to touch. The outline of the blade pins are visible on both ends of the knife. Two of the blades sit so low in the well that they are very hard to open and one of the pen blades opens rough.
I was curious about the quality of these with this tang stamp and now I know what not to buy in the future. I suspect that these knives were sourced in China and the final assembly might have been Germany or it could be all Chinese made. Does anyone know for sure about these? I think most if not all the H&R knives now are made entirely in China. The boxes deceptively say “German Stainless” or “German Steel” or “German Design”. I think they are trying to catch people unaware of the difference between made in Germany and German design, steel or stainless.
If anyone has info or experience with these, please post it here.
Thanks

[edge213]

I ordered a H&R Congress the other day and was deeply disappointed with the quality. This one has a suspect tang stamp. It’s not marked Bertram Cutlery and the model number, or Bertram Cutlery Rostfrie and then the model number. This one says Bertram Cutlery Germany, see photo. The box has the California warning about cancer so I know it’s a fairly new production since the older models don’t have this warning on the box. The box says made in Germany but the quality is simply not there. Gaps between the liners and backsprings. There were dots on the main blade that looked like it wasn’t buffed properly or else there are impurities in the metal. Gap between the bone handles and liners filled with glue. Rough area on the backsprings from bad polishing and rough edges where the bone handles are not smooth to touch. The outline of the blade pins are visible on both ends of the knife. Two of the blades sit so low in the well that they are very hard to open and one of the pen blades opens rough.
I was curious about the quality of these with this tang stamp and now I know what not to buy in the future. I suspect that these knives were sourced in China and the final assembly might have been Germany or it could be all Chinese made. Does anyone know for sure about these? I think most if not all the H&R knives now are made entirely in China. The boxes deceptively say “German Stainless” or “German Steel” or “German Design”. I think they are trying to catch people unaware of the difference between made in Germany and German design, steel or stainless.
If anyone has info or experience with these, please post it here.
Thanks

That one is definitely Chinese made.

[Louisville.Boy1947]

I ordered a H&R Congress the other day and was deeply disappointed with the quality. This one has a suspect tang stamp. It’s not marked Bertram Cutlery and the model number, or Bertram Cutlery Rostfrie and then the model number. This one says Bertram Cutlery Germany, see photo. The box has the California warning about cancer so I know it’s a fairly new production since the older models don’t have this warning on the box. The box says made in Germany but the quality is simply not there. Gaps between the liners and backsprings. There were dots on the main blade that looked like it wasn’t buffed properly or else there are impurities in the metal. Gap between the bone handles and liners filled with glue. Rough area on the backsprings from bad polishing and rough edges where the bone handles are not smooth to touch. The outline of the blade pins are visible on both ends of the knife. Two of the blades sit so low in the well that they are very hard to open and one of the pen blades opens rough.
I was curious about the quality of these with this tang stamp and now I know what not to buy in the future. I suspect that these knives were sourced in China and the final assembly might have been Germany or it could be all Chinese made. Does anyone know for sure about these? I think most if not all the H&R knives now are made entirely in China. The boxes deceptively say “German Stainless” or “German Steel” or “German Design”. I think they are trying to catch people unaware of the difference between made in Germany and German design, steel or stainless.
If anyone has info or experience with these, please post it here.
Thanks

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I am not an authority on the subject, I do have a sizeable number of H&R knives and have learned from my mistakes. You are correct in most of your statements.

If the tang stamp is laser engraved it is a fairly new import and not the same quality as those from Solingen, Germany. Whereas the knives with tang stamps that are forged or impressed into the metal with the H&R logo and the word 'Solingen' would be an import from Solingen, Germany manufactured after July 1980 (when the company went bankrupt) and are of reasonable quality. In the bankruptcy (1983) the trademarks and assets of H&R were purchased by Jim Frost, Hugo Schiesen of Robert Klaas Cutlery (Solingen, Germany), Howard Rabin of Star Sales of Knoxville, TN. After a short period of time, and prior to the retirement of Howard Rabin, Mr. James Frost bought the sole rights to the mark and distribution of all Hen & Rooster knives in the United States.

Knives marked with the word 'Germany' or "German Stainless Steel" does not mean the knife was manufactured in Solingen, Germany. Some knives with 'German Stainless' were assembled in Toledo, Spain. I have a few of these and you will find that the word 'Spain' can be found on the blade next to the tang area. It can be difficult at times to see the 'Spain', especially if someone has buffed the blade in an attempt to pass off these knives to the unsuspecting.

The tang stamps with C Bertram Cutlery are a dead give away that the knife is of post 2005 production, most likely post 2015 and of lesser quality * than those * produced with the forged/impressed 'Solingen' H&R logo tang stamp.
My advice is if your budget can afford the pre-1980 production, then go for it. If you want 'good' quality but not the best, then consider only the post-1983through 2005 production with the tang stamps have the 'Solingen' tang stamp. I would suggest you avoid any knife that has 'laser engraved' H&R logo tang mark or with Spain laser etched on the blade(s).

Also, I see a lot of sellers using boxes (*most* are light green in color, not the older dark green color that say manufactured in Solingen, Germany) that make reference to 'manufactured in or made in Germany'....or marked 'German Design"....that tell me the seller is trying to convince me the knife being sold is not what they want me to believe it is. They want me to believe the knife was manufactured in Solingen, Germany and try to skirt around and use other language to make me think it was. A lot of sellers want you to believe that boxes marked this way are of the better quality knives produced in Solingen.

Just as a point I note that my sources are/were from A. G. Russell (he purchased H&R in 1975 and kept it running until the 1980 bankruptcy), and the Frost website (HenandRooster.com).

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Thank you I appreciate the in depth response. I sent this knife back to the seller. I was curious and I usually only buy the ones that are stamped and not laser engraved but wanted to see what this one was like. Live and learn.

[thankgod4rkids]

I have a stag congress stamped Spain that is very substandard. Scales have gaps and springs do not sit flush. My whittler stamped Solingen is one of my highest quality knives. I have a Congress in the mail that is supposed to be Solingen stamped. (My wife's fault. She left me waiting in the car for her for an hour. Looking at knives on my phone and.....well you know.). I'll see what arrives in a day or so and let you know.
Bill

[Louisville.Boy1947]

I have a stag congress stamped Spain that is very substandard. Scales have gaps and springs do not sit flush. My whittler stamped Solingen is one of my highest quality knives. I have a Congress in the mail that is supposed to be Solingen stamped. (My wife's fault. She left me waiting in the car for her for an hour. Looking at knives on my phone and.....well you know.). I'll see what arrives in a day or so and let you know.
Bill

Don't feel lonesome, we all have been "there"

[thankgod4rkids]

Well mine is here. I'm not disappointed in the knife for what I paid but would be suspect as to German made. I'll let someone smarter than me be the judge. The Hen & Rooster/ Bertram is laser not stamped. It is stamped German Stainless Steel. The only place Solingen appears is on the paper it is wrapped in. My fit and finish appears to be better than Sharpnshinyknives received but I wouldn't go as far as "high quality ".
Bill

[edge213]

Well mine is here. I'm not disappointed in the knife for what I paid but would be suspect as to German made. I'll let someone smarter than me be the judge. The Hen & Rooster/ Bertram is laser not stamped. It is stamped German Stainless Steel. The only place Solingen appears is on the paper it is wrapped in. My fit and finish appears to be better than Sharpnshinyknives received but I wouldn't go as far as "high quality ".
Bill

Looks like a China knife to me.

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Well mine is here. I'm not disappointed in the knife for what I paid but would be suspect as to German made. I'll let someone smarter than me be the judge. The Hen & Rooster/ Bertram is laser not stamped. It is stamped German Stainless Steel. The only place Solingen appears is on the paper it is wrapped in. My fit and finish appears to be better than Sharpnshinyknives received but I wouldn't go as far as "high quality ".
Bill

Thanks for following up. I was curious what you would think. I hate it when knife makers play this game. Seems like every few years one of them tries this ploy to fool people for a time. I’m glad we can find out here on this forum about these before more people get taken advantage of.

[luckydog64]

Buck Creek knives are in the same category. The older ones have Solingen on them and the newer ones have German Stainless. I have heard Solingen is strict about the knives that are labeled made in Solingen.

[1967redrider]

I think ol' Frosty was recently having these made in China using the chemical composition of German steel and marking them as "German Steel." I see no difference between this knife and a Frost knife clearly marked, "Made in China." I think the Hen & Rooster International production further clouds the issue between German/Toledo and China made Hen & Roosters, both folders and fixed blades. I would be weary of anything made in the last several years, just my 2¢.

[Sharpnshinyknives]

I think ol' Frosty was recently having these made in China using the chemical composition of German steel and marking them as "German Steel." I see no difference between this knife and a Frost knife clearly marked, "Made in China." I think the Hen & Rooster International production further clouds the issue between German/Toledo and China made Hen & Roosters, both folders and fixed blades. I would be weary of anything made in the last several years, just my 2¢.

Agreed!

[edge213]

I don't understand why companies aren't just out in the open as to where their products are made.
It's seems a little dishonest to me. I would be less likely to purchase from one of these companies.
If they are ashamed of where their products are made maybe they should change their production location.
If they are not ashamed then mark them clearly.

[thankgod4rkids]

I don't understand why companies aren't just out in the open as to where their products are made.
It's seems a little dishonest to me. I would be less likely to purchase from one of these companies.
If they are ashamed of where their products are made maybe they should change their production location.
If they are not ashamed then mark them clearly.

I agree. I was looking for a cheap congress to see if I liked the style and blade configuration in my hand. Was actually thinking R & R or something from China. When I seen the Hen and Rooster in the $30 range plus shipping I was suspect but took a shot.
Bill