Who made what???

The W.R. Case & Sons Cutlery Company has a very rich history that began in 1889 when William Russell (“W.R.”), Jean, John, and Andrew Case began fashioning their knives and selling them along a wagon trail in upstate New York. The company has produced countless treasures and it continues to do so as one of the most collected brands in the world.
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Bryan
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Who made what???

Post by Bryan »

I learned something today that I thought I would share. For some reason or other, I used to think that most Case Classic Knives were made by the Queen. If I recall correctly, I think I was told that on more than one occasion. On a previous post by yerout, I learned that most were made by Blue Grass Cutlery, and a few by Case. I just read in Gerald Witcher's Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery that four patterns were made by Case. They include the 54 pattern trapper, the 94 pattern gunboat, the four bladed 88 pattern congress, and the two bladed 52100 saddlehorn. The rest were contract knives made by Blue Grass.

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Post by El Lobo »

Oh BOY!!

This is gonna be fun.
What page is that in Witcher's book Bryan? I'm feeling lazy... :mrgreen:

I have been under the impression that Blue Grass Cutlery (Scott and Dorton [ Dorton started Bulldog..sold to Parker]) bought the Winchester name and some tooling....to have knives made on contract FOR THEM. That they don't really make any knives!

This has been bandied around the various forums, and always spikes a great debate. Bernard Levine has stated that they don't make any cutlery. Others say they do.

When I bought a KNIFE World 20th Anniversary knife by Blue Grass, I asked Mark Zalesky if it was a Queen knife. He said that they were deeply involved in the project......whatever. :roll: :lol:

I have heard from knowledgeable folks that Blue Grass just markets knives from Utica (Primbles) and Queen (Winchester...some Primbles) and may be involved with Gerber(owned by Fiskars) on some "Offshore" imports. One poster said an employee told him Blue Grass DOES make knives.....but they denied him a "SHOP" tour. :roll:

I've also heard the Queen/Case Classic connection, as you mentioned. Maybe Blue Grass was an intermediary or something around Parker's time? Bulldog hangover/connection? But, that's a guess....not fact for sure.

I'd SURE like to find this out....but it's fun to speculate! ::tu::

Hey Roger, did you mean they were made for Bluegrass? Or, do you know something about the early operation? "National Enquireing" minds want to know!! :mrgreen:

Next batter!!

Bill
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Post by Bryan »

Hey Bill,

That information came from the middle of page 183.


I guess Roger didn't explicitely say that Blue Grass Cutlery manufactured them.

quote yerout
The Classic's were made by Charlie Dorton, Dave Scott, George Smith the owner's of Blue Grass Cutlery
I bought a Case Classics Book a while back. I think I have skimmed through about every page, but I haven't sat down and read the whole thing. When I do get around to reading it front to back, I'll keep my eyes pealed for clues about this. Surely there will be something. If this topic gets heated, I may have to take the day off and read.

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Post by El Lobo »

Just gonna keep this simmerin', as it were... :mrgreen:

Here is a link to a thread from 2003 on one of Bernard's forums.....

Shortened Link -edited by Bryan to make shorter per El Lobo's request:D

Hope this works, I don't know why it's such a long link? (Sigh :shock: )Maybe because I had to use the search? If you can shorten it please do... :oops:

Look for BRL's post of Jan. 11th, if it doesn't show right up.

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Post by Bryan »

Hey Bill,

That was a great read. Mr. Levine sure does have a lot of knowlege. If he says Queen made them, then by golly, Queen must have had something to do with their production. I'm sure there are a lot of people who can say for sure. The head of the whole thing, Mr. Jim Parker was one. He passed away though as most knife collectors know. It seems as time passes it gets harder and harder to get to the bottom of these things. I guess that is what makes collecting so fun :D

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Post by El Lobo »

Bryan,

First off, thank you for shortening that link.... ::tu::

My computer knowledge has a ways to go... :oops:

Anyway, Witcher's vernacular leaves room for interpretation. "Wordsmithing" other's thoughts can be a challenge. He may mean that Case (owned by Parker at that time...1990) entered into a licensing agreement with Blue Grass, who actually had the knives manufactured on contract through Queen.....or maybe not. But I'm going with that concept, and what Bernard seems to imply, until I find better evidence.


Who makes/made what? It is a great and interesting topic. Thanks for starting it...and I hope others will chime in as well.

Regards,

Bill
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Post by yerout »

Bryan and Bill, please forgive me that I have not made a reply before now on the Classic's, I will try to get in touch with James ( Buzz ) Parker, I think Buzz knew as much or probably more than his Father about the Classic's, I belive he was in charge of recieving and the distribution of the Classic's, I will see Mack (Parker) this month I see him about once a month and buy and trade knives with him, also time permitting I will drive up and talk with John (Parker), He and Mack worked with Jim when he owned Case, I belive John was also one of the founders of Smokey Mountain Knife Works along with Kevin Pipes, maybe together we will get to the bottom of this.

Thanks !
Roger

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Post by Bryan »

All Right! Now we're getting somewhere. :D Thanks Roger ::tu::

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Post by El Lobo »

Thanks Roger..... ::tu::

I'd really be interested to know if Blue Grass actually has a knife factory, or anything else of interest that you can share.

Sounds like you are quite a collector/trader.....and probably user. :)

No matter what, this stuff is fun...... :mrgreen:

Bill
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Post by Roger - 50/2050 »

Howdy boys,

----- Bryan, Bill & Roger.... I am new to your knife site & am a standing member of the Case Classics club & elephanttoenails.com .... I was reading what ya'll were talking about on "who made what" & it has always been my understanding that Queen made the blades & back springs for most of the Case Classics & Blue Grass did final assembly!

----- Bryan, in regards to reading your Case Classic book please keep in mind that there are 109 type o's in the book!

----- All other information ya'll want to know about the Classics you can find out from John Adams, John is the founder of the Case Classics Club & you can contact him through the clubs site on the web.

----- I have been collecting the 2050 pattern Classics for six years now & have a total of 105 pieces in my personal collection, I also collect other patterns in the Classics but mostly the Elephant Toe/Sunfish 2050's as they are my "first love".


"Texas collector", Roger - 50/2050 :wink:
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Post by Bryan »

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the great information! :D I noticed all of the typ o's in the Classics book :shock: Wonder what is up with that. 2050s huh, sounds like a great collection. I haven't been accumulating Classics very long, but I really like the ones I have so far. Very well made... You must feel the same way :D .

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Post by Roger - 50/2050 »

Howdy Bryan,

----- I found out about the type o's in the "Long Haul book" I think about four years ago from John Adams when writing to him requesting information about a few Classic 091 patterns & a few 1995 52050's I won in a Ebay auction. To me it seems that the Classics book wasn't proof read properly before the final printing of this book.

----- Another interesting item is there was no documentation of total run amounts on Prototype/Salesman Samples in the 2050 pattern I collect as well as most other Classic patterns in this catagory, sometimes you could find a few with the run amount engraved on the back side the main blades.

----- One more item I'd like to share with you is there were no regular Case Classic COA's made for any of the 1995 2050 patterns, why I do not know? I have in my personal collection all the regular run 1995 2050's mentioned in the book + thrity seven salesman Sample/Prototypes that range in handles done in bone to exotic handles & none of these knives came with a regular Case Classic COA, instead I have the 8 1/2" X 11" Parker letter & or a 8 1/2" X 11" Case Classic Club letter of documentation for these knives. Bryan, if you are looking for proper documentation for your Classic knives I would be more than happy to ask for you, I think the price for these services is about $5.00 for each knife.


"Texas collector", Roger - 50/2050 :wink:
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Post by El Lobo »

Roger 50/2050,

It's good to have a Classic collector in our midst...I'm just learning about Case knives, as they were last on my list, since everyone else was collecting them and there are few bargins on nice pieces.

I'm always interested in history and such, and look forward to a definitive answer about how much making/hafting Blue Grass does/did. We all seem to have opinions, impressions, and "bits and pieces".....but man, I'd like to know the details for real.
I guess I might be wishing on a star, as it were, but what the heck, someone really knows. I've been collecting/using/selling knives since 1964, but I still love this stuff.

Bill
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Post by Roger - 50/2050 »

Howdy Bill,

------ The history of Blue Grass with Queen involved in regards to the making/halfting of the Case Classics back then has always been a large gray area old pard! In the first three years I was collecting the Classics I had asked that question to many collectors & sellers that have been in the hobby for years & in my 1st reply to this topic where I said that "it was my understanding that Queen made the blades & back springs & Blue Grass did final assembly" I made this statement based on all answers I did receive from all I had asked over the years. Those that do know ain't talking (to me anyway :| )! Maybe Roger (yerout) at a later date can give us that information after he talks with Buzz & John?

------ Bill & Bryan, if ya'll intend to put any more Classics into your collections now is the time to do so before the market value on these knives goes through the roof! It has already started in some of these patterns & will continue due to the many newer collectors joining up in the hobby every day now. Four years ago I bought five 1995 - 52050 Stag - 1 of 24's with the DBull Elephant etch on the main blades for $170.00 each & today these knives when you can find them in mint to near mint condition are going for $500.00+ ... One things for sure my knifer friends, Jim Parker's dream has become a giant indeed & will continue to be even more in demand in the years to come!


"Texas collector", Roger - 50/2050 :wink:
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Another point of view about the Bluegrass/Queen controversy

Post by ilikeknives »

Before I knew any of this, I got some of Bluegrass' newest catalogs and their new stuff could rival the classics, even the finishes look the same. does that help? When I called and wrote to bluegrass to inquire about these very things, man, it was all HUSH HUSH 8) 8) , and, why do you want to know?? So, what the problem? Does it all really need to remain a mystery :roll: ???
Can anyone tell me which are the patterns of classics to keep/collect?? I have some rare one's according to the Case Classics Book (which is, in itself, become a collector's dream to have, especially with JP's, Penley's and Masts signatures) I got mine for $150.00 and I thought it was a great deal. Any help for those of us out here who haven't had a lifetime of being around knives is very much appreciated. Thank to all of you who contribute, I love to learn all I can about this stuff. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Post by Roger - 50/2050 »

Howdy boys,

------ Well, I did it now for sure :| (Maybe?), today I sat down & gave it a lot of thought then I composed a letter & sent it via e-mail to Blue Grass Cutlery addressed to MR. Charlie Dorton himself asking the man to clear the air for us all on this matter of "who made what?" regarding the Classics! I figured he was the man to talk with on this subject, I gave the letter truth & a lot of Southern style politeness along with a pinch of Grandmas home made molasses to make it smooth & not sticky! Hopefully he will respond with the real deal (truth) for us on this matter we all want to know about, when & if he responds I will forward all information to ya'll on this site.

------ Happy Trails my knifer friends!


"Texas collector", Roger - 50/2050 :wink:
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Post by El Lobo »

Well pardner,

With all that style and those good ingredients, I'll bet you'd make a heck of a mop sauce... :D ::tu::

We'll be here with our fingers crossed.

Bill
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Post by Bryan »

Good ole Roger 50 / 2050 really came through for us with some great information on this one. This was sent to him from Mr. Dave Scott of Blue Grass Cutlery...
Years ago, we at Blue Grass Cutlery, Inc. purchased the old tooling from basically all knife companies. Over the years, we upgraded these dies & have made many knives like the past. We have made knives for Case (which are called Case Classics), we have made knives for other companies such as KaBar, Moore Maker & etc. We manufacturer the Winchester Knives, and we own the John Primble Trademark. The Case Classic line we made and was distributed thru Jim Parker, Parkers Cutlery and or Buzz & Jami's Knife Service and others. We since that time have made knives directly for Case, such as the V42 and etc. We pride ourselves on producing some of the highest quality knives in the U.S.A. We trust this is the information in which you were request. We appreciate your interest! Thanks! BGC, Inc.

Thanks Roger 50/2050 for your great investigative work! ::tu:: ::tu::
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Post by El Lobo »

I agree that Roger 50/2050 really got the ball rolling. ::tu:: ::tu::

That said, since I did a lot of Bid reading/research in my business career, I feel Mr. Scott stopped short of saying that Blue Grass CUTLERS (employees) actually made these knives from scratch, in house. Most knife history buffs know that Blue Grass won the bid for the old dies for several firms. And I still think it unusual that they didn't want that collector on Bladeforums to drop by. I know that they don't have to allow or welcome that, but still...
The terminology Mr. Scott used could easily mean contracted the work by hiring and paying a company like Queen. Thus they are loosely "MAKING" the knives. We all know who makes MooreMakers...folks from MooreMaker have even said as much on Knifeforums.

So, I suppose that makes me bullheaded at the least...or maybe Wolfeheaded...but I'm not comfortable that a conclusion has been reached, so I'll probably continue my quest for more information.

I may just be tugging on Superman's cape here.....whatever.

I want to stress, that I'm in NO way belittling ANYbody's effort or input here in any way, shape, or form. I'M just not quite sold.

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Post by Roger - 50/2050 »

Howdy Bill,

------ Let us hold the phone on that one old pard, I still have more input coming on this topic but it will take a little more time for me to get it as I need special permission for its use & will post my findings as time allows my knifer friend! Roger (yerout) will also have more information to add as well, so keep the faith my knife brothers as this topic is not over yet!!!


" Texas collector ", Roger - 50/2050 :wink:
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Post by Bryan »

Hiya Bill,

I, for one, completely understand what you're saying. It seems like everything that is written or said about this can be deciphered in numerous ways. Roger 50/2050 informed me that he has another line out there that may or may not turn out to be useful to our discussion here. I believe that yourout may be hunting down some information as well. Surely some cold hard evidence will be uncovered. I'd like to thank Roger 20/2050 and Roger (yerout) again for their efforts. BGC would make a great politician.

edit ---> oops... Roger 50/250 beat me to the punch on this one... I posted this before I seen his reply.

Bryan
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Post by El Lobo »

Hey folks,

I also would like to say that I have no beef or agenda with Blue Grass.
I think most of their offerings are quite nice. (Especially the Case Classics :lol: ).
I just like the research and detective part a bunch..... ::tu:: (I like that icon too!).....and have emailed a certain publication who contracted Blue Grass a while ago in hopes of them spilling the, er, aah, of course I mean, participating in our little research project.... :shock: :D

Edited here:
I would not be surprised to learn that Blue Grass has evolved to where they buy components (Blades, Liners, Springs, etc.) and hand assemble/haft them at their facility....much like Wendell Carson's Fightin Bull Knives....or the former Schrade employees who have started Canal Street Cutlery and are doing that very thing. I suppose most folks would consider that making/manufacturing knives. So I wanted to add this in CASE (he,he :mrgreen: ) I came off as a bullheaded whatever.

This journalism stuff is exhausting...and the pay is crummy. :oops: :mrgreen:

Anyway, this forum is a great opportunity to continue the learning process and I enjoy the ride.

Thanks all,

Bill
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Post by yerout »

I like the rest of you have no 100 percent answer not even a 50 percent answer, I could not drive up to see John Parker but I did email him, his answer was a few patterns were made by case the other's were made by queen, he said BGC was a sub-contractor who had the knives made for his brother Jim (Parker). I did see Mack (Parker) Saturday and he told me that BGC had bought all the old die's from case, he also said that BGC had 2 plants and in December when I came up to Parker's Greatest Knife Show on Earth he would put me in touch with a Mr. Scott from BGC and we would have a sit down with him (hillbilly for talk) and I will also talk to Buzz (Parker) and see if we can get to the bottom of this, and belive me I would like to know because this cabinet full of Classic's to my right can't tell me who made them.

yerout
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knowledgeable knife knuts

Post by TinyToothpick »

I am not surprised at this exchange of information but I have to tell you posters at this topic YOU GUYS ARE DEFINATELY KNIFE KNUTS! That is a good thing and I'm going to tell you why. Gentlemen, and I'll use that term cautiously, who engage in topics and lifestyles such as this one here are the quintessential backbone of keeping this country's history right on track. You few have spoken of mysteries in gathering information. This makes for some very interesting reading I'll say for sure. Most importantly, before you all pass on into your next life of collecting knifes in the hereafter, You will be able to rest assured the knowledge you exchanged here wasn't for naught. One of your purposes in life gentlemen is to continually educate the interested collectors, that in fact will continue to drive up the prices of your investments, and this brings me to MY point. What is considered a classic collectable pattern?

I'll agree it would have been easier to just ask the question however I truly feel that there is SO much knowledge from these few posters here, right here that I could not and would not disrespect them in any way shape or form. Nice information Men.
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Collectable Classic pattern?

Post by CCBill »

In my humble opinion, you should pick whatever pattern appeals to YOU and collect it because YOU like it. I don't really consider myself a collector. I am an "accumulator". I own, probably 500-600 knives(about 200 Classics) and enjoy them all.
My Classic of choice is the 254 trapper. They don't come around very often, so I will never have a lot of them.
JMHO... CCBill...
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