BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

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jonbowie
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BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by jonbowie »

I'm looking over my assortment of kitchen knives which happens to include several "old hickory" type knives, and a recently added "I Wilson" butcher knife, though the one I use most is a FORGECRAFT Hi carbon branded chef knife. One of my "best" knives, in terms of getting seriously sharp and holding that edge, is a knife I picked up years ago, crazy cheap, at a small town antique mall in central Texas. I have never been able to find any marks on it. It resembles a number of knives still being marketed as chef's knives, manufactured in France, by Sabatier et. al. When I got it, it was almost 18" overall, but had been sharpened so much, that it was "recurved" on the edge. I cut the blade down to about 9", with a classic "chef's knife" profile. The handle is of a very dark brown wood, possibly walnut. When I got it is was saturated with years of animal fat/tallow, and looked even darker. It has three large pins of some exceedingly white metal. The blade appears to be some sort of hi carbon steel, with a grayish tint, no matter how much you polish it. Most of the knives I find that resemble it the closest, have a bolster of some sort. This one does not. Also, a number of the French knives have a feature at the base of the blade, where it meets the handle, that I don't know the term for. It's like a flat plate, almost like a guard, which appears to be part of the blade. What is that called? What is it supposed to be good for? I have seen something similar on some of the early "Bowie" knives, which of course probably evolved from the butcher knives of the time. Though I've never seen anything like it on the "mountain man"/I Wilson knives that seem to have been the standard of the day. Was this intended to protect the butcher from slipping and cutting himself? Does that make it a guard, as it is sometimes referred to when discussing those early Bowies? Is that where the guard on the Bowie came from? Though of course swords and daggers had been made with guards since antiquity. A book on Bowie that I read recently claims that either James or Rezin added a guard to their "large butcher knife" after slipping and cutting themselves while trying to stab either a bull or an alligator in the skull!!!! Accounts varied!!
Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on what this knife might be? Yeah, I know I'll try to post some pics soon, have to figure all that out. Mainly, WHAT IS that flat ricasso/bolster/guard thing called? And what's it doing on a chef's knife anyway.....not stabbing too many alligators these days one assumes.
Jon
jonbowie
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by jonbowie »

I'm attempting to post photo; here goes
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knife7knut
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by knife7knut »

I'm not sure you could call it a guard although in that configuration it would act somewhat like one.I've always known that area of the blade as the ricasso. I would suppose it could be called a Sabatier pattern even though it lacks the normal area in front of the handle. More likely it would be referred to as a chef's knife.
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kootenay joe
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by kootenay joe »

Quote: "WHAT IS that flat ricasso/bolster/guard thing called? "
I don't know what you are referring to ? I see a blade with a wood handle held on by 3 pins. No guard.
kj
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FRJ
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by FRJ »

Are you referring to the "flange" at the back of the blade?

These 3 knives are Dexters in 8", 10" and 12".

Something else to look for. Does the tang on your knife taper?
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jonbowie
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by jonbowie »

Hey All,
Thanks for the replies. Sorry, I wasn't clear, the flat plate set at ninety degrees to the blade that I referred to does not exist on the knife in the photo. My knife (photo) has no bolster or pronounced ricasso. I was pointing out that most of the knives I come across when trying to identify mine DO have a bolster and/or this "flange" as FRJ refers to it. Flange is as good a thing to call it as any; I figured it had a technical knife-o-phile term. I used Sabatier as an example, but, yes the same as on the Dexters (nice knives) I had seen this flange mostly on French knives, and thought it was just their flair for the dramatic. The Dexters are US made, yes? I have seen a few like mine that were the "economy" model of expensive brands like Sabatier, so thought it might be something along those lines.
No, mine does not have any taper in the tang. I have seen that in the I Wilson and another that came in the same lot from Ebay. Anyone ever heard of __ R WHITING from Monte Vista, Colorado? I tried to make a blank before the R: there are two initials before WHITING. I can't make out the first. Could be J or O...top left is worn away......Anyway the tang on mine seems flat/parallel. The blade is just under 1/8" where it leaves the handle, and the full tang is just over an eighth throughout the handle. The blade itself does have a nice taper throughout its length. I tried to photograph the back edge, but wasn't happy with the result, may try to post since you asked and I need practice!
Back to the flange. Aside from perhaps protecting fingers, does it serve a purpose? Seems like it would interfere with sharpening, or is there a bit of unsharpened ricasso ahead of it? I assume it is of the same steel/part of the blade; on some it seems to transition directly into a bolster as well. Is this correct?
OK I think I managed to add photo. By the way, I suppose all of this should have been in the "kitchen" forum...sorry about that, still learning!
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kootenay joe
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by kootenay joe »

Thanks for the updated explanation of your question.
I think the 'flange' is to help prevent your fingers from slipping forward when using the knife. It is a design feature on a minority of large kitchen/chef knives that i have seen.
The downside i see is that you could not push the blade fully through something as the flange would hang up and drag.
kj
jonbowie
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by jonbowie »

Can anyone come up with a more technical knife maker term for what we are calling a "flange"?
No knowledge on knife from Monte Vista, Colorado? Guess I need to post a photo. I'll try to get to it this afternoon. I'll post that in the "kitchen" forum.
Thanks to All,
Jon
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FRJ
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by FRJ »

Thank you, Jon, for the comment on the Dexter knives. They really are very nice, high end knives, although mine
are quite tarnished from daily use. They were U.S.A. made in Southbridge, Massachusetts.
Also, here is a photo of my French style chef knives with the famous "Nogent" handles.
These are not Sabatier brand but of the French Sabatier style as are the Dexters and many other brands from other countries that followed that traditional blade design for many years.
I'm sorry I can't come up with a more technical term than "flange" for the back of the knife.
I will admit it sounds like something from an exhaust manifold from and old flathead six. It escapes the nuances of fine cooking parlance that's for sure. I believe its design was to more properly grip the chefs knife with thumb and index finger. (see picture) I'm sure it was removed for cost saving reasons in later knife manufacturing. I have several old chefs knives with out the flange and they are quite worthy kitchen tools.
In your early post you mentioned that you cut down a chefs knife. I did that too with an old Dexter I got at a flea market. It was quit worn and I used it that way for a while but I found it would be nice to have a knife edge I could push into what ever to cut it in a pan and work vertically. I like the design a lot. It's quite handy.
I scored it with a file edge and snapped off the end and created a edge.
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Re: BUTCHER/CHEF KNIFE STRUCTURE

Post by eveled »

I’d describe that feature as an upset Ricasso, or an upset guard. In blacksmithing upsetting is making metal fatter, as opposed to drawing it out which is making it flatter and thinner.
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