LT, I need your expert knowledge

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BrokenCamillus
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LT, I need your expert knowledge

Post by BrokenCamillus »

I know this information has been written about here before, but I have specific questions that I hope you can give me some specific answers to.

I bought two Schrade Walden knives that I decided to give as Christmas gifts to my two oldest children. These are the U.S.A. made Taylor licensed knives that Smokey Mountain sells.

I would like to know the history of these Schrade Walden knives and who really makes them. Why make the Schrade Walden knives except for the name sake?

Do these knives have any value to Schrade collectors and enthusiasts?

Are original Schrade knives still available NOS. I'd really like to get a few in my favorite styles, or whatever I can find that were U.S.A. made slip joints.

Thank you for your help and Merry Christmas to you.

Al
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Post by knifeaholic »

I can answer part of your question - Schrade Walden marked knives made in USA and sold thru Taylor are made by Bear & Son Cutlery in Alabma and by Camillus. Camillus makes the yellow delrin versions and Bear makes them in amber bone and in walnut.
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Post by lt632ret »

Thanks for the MFG I actually had forgotten who did what however that as I recall is correct. As far as my opinion being expert that is also a matter of opinion. However thankyou. Now the whole thing is about names Schrade Walden is a good collectors name these are sought after. another factor that is sought by collectors is an american product. Really this is an old story. Hammer brand was bought in the thirtys by imperial ( when NYK closed )and started producing shell handled knives under that mark . It certainly was not the same type of knife and was certainly a less expensive product and not of the same quality however the name and tang was recognized ( that is why i guess this is called IP intellectual property since apparently people are not smart enough ( intellectual ) to recognize that it is different. In any event it is an old procedure. Names like Walden Knife, New York Knife, Honk Falls ect are all owned by either Smokey or Taylor ( shush that is a big secret ). Variations and contracts using these markings appear every so often Schrade did a typical schrade stag contract of a NYK in the 80tys or 90tys . These still show up I have a few. A few people still buy them thinking they have bought a mint old knife that snuck by. As usual what you get is what you pay for. Sometimes people sell them and do explain that they are not original. In any event they are what they are. functional knives just not original.

That being said one of the interesting points of this particular scenario is that upon the acquisition of the name the product the new owner maker turns out is not usually not of the quality of the old knifes. As in the case of Hammer. Perhapes it is because of material expense, or MFG techniques . Personally I do not feel the quality of the Commy Schrade knives is presently up to the standards of the old Schrades . As far as the Bear and Camillus products make your own decisions I do not own any and do not plan to however here is another big secret . I hate secrets and will blab them in a minute so don't tell me any. ( Camillous had made certain Schrade knives for them ( on contract) for years . Both these companies were pretty tight ( owners even related so a lot of hush hush things went on. ). One model in particular was the large fruit knife ( I forget the model and am not going to look it up I think 102 ( correct me if wrong I am sure someone will ).

One interesting aside again that no one is aware of is that Canal Street Cutlery was originally going to be called Walden Knife . In fact I gave them a piece of original Walden knife stationary to use as a sample logo to get ideas for the new logo. This company was going to produce high quality knives similar to the original Walden knives product. As I said this would have been unusual usually the product is cheapened. They had acquired legal use of the name. Much the same as Taylor has use of the Smith and Wesson line by actually renting it on a yearly basis. However since the ( very similar ) Schrade Walden name was already set to go on the Camillous contracts . a legal action was threatened to stop use of the walden name. The info I received was that Canal would have won but it would have taken a couple of years and an estimated 40,000 dollars remember this was a fledgling new company so the name was changed ( to protect the innocent as they say. ). That by the way is why it is now Canal St Cut instead of Walden Cut.

As far as collectibility it is in the eye of the beholder. If these companies go out tomorrow if laws change who knows. I just put a card of shur snap knives that could be bought in the 40 tys and 50tys on another thread these cost a dollar or two then now that complete full board is several thousand dollars. There was an orange paratrooper knife made by Schrade Camillous and Logan Smythe the Schrade and Camillous versions were OK ( not great ) but the Logan Smythe was really lousy . it is the one worth the most why?? Because at this point you cannot find one in decent condition that still works. Supply and demand. So there are many facets to collectability. As far as buying the old Schrade knives the regular editions such as an american 8-OT there will be many around for a long time they made millions. I would not doubt that your children will be able to find one in original clampack for there kids. However as with any subject some stuff is rarer and the old Schrades in some cases, are worth large amounts. However you can't have them because I want them all. If you check the auctions on ebay old stores flea markets ect you will find plenty of the later regular model and perhapes some older ones. In the mean time you will be well on your way to becoming a Schrade a holic addict and may well acquire full blown Schraids. LT PS I hope this helps.
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Post by Grizzly_Dog »

Thanks for the bit of history LT, Keep it coming!! You have an eager audience. ::tu::
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A Greatful Thank You

Post by BrokenCamillus »

LT, That is exactly what I wanted to know.

Thank you very much.

Al
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New York Knife

Post by Mossdancer »

Hi LT;
Figured this would be easiest way to get your attention. Since last speaking I have been nosing around old NYKC pieces. Found this yesterday, The stamp is a bit different. Sorry my camera went belly up so I had to scan and depict. The first time I have seen a corn blade on one of these. Am I correct in thinking this is before 1880. The line above and below Walden is true to the stamp and the longitudinal stamp on the corn is true also. When my camera charges I will provide photos if needed. I thought sort of neat with the easy open nail notches on same side of MOP.
wb
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Post by orvet »

Nice knife WB ::tu::
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Post by lt632ret »

Pictures are needed I am not sure I understand the circular stamp is indicative of Walden Knife not NYK . However if it has another stamp as indicated that is NYK. Your conclusion may well be correct. The pattern is old but was used for many years. It may have had another blade put on somewhere in time. It might be an early Walden. Need pics. This pattern was made by almost everyone so that does not help. LT
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NYKC

Post by Mossdancer »

THe surface of tang when I got it was black gunk, it was also scuffed from opening and closing. The pics are what they are. The odd one is a 778 I picked up at the same time.
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Post by lt632ret »

Someone has blessed you with a special event . Your knife child in my opinion a Hybrid with one walden knife and one NYK blade. The frame was made by both companies. That is how I see it however I would welcome any opinions . Really it would not be that difficult for someone to do. That is a fun piece thankyou LT
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Post by Mossdancer »

Hi LT;
Trying to look at this from a more experienced eye than I have. There could be various scenerios that could have transpired for this to have happened. I can imagine a viable one being that one of the few who left NYKC and formed Walden, inadvertently departed with maybe a frame and blade of his last project and finished it off at the new company with Walden blade and handles. For your info the fit and finish of the knife is superb the liner is even milled,the nail nicks match up exact also.
Being that this is lore, this knife could have been built who knows maybe during opening weeks in 1869 or 1870. I have no idea who the men involved were or a person could narrow down the maker to a couple of people or possibly the exact one should their task assignments be known. Thank you very much for any further comments you might have. A huge thanks also for the previous information.
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Post by lt632ret »

Well while it would seem that somewhere down the line they were mated I would tend to doubt your time line. Really early tang stamps while extremely difficult to find are on the other hand fairly recognizable once you have seen an example . These are infact so rare that many collectors never see them. As far as the Walden Knife company the original stampings were Walden COO. or Walden COOP or similar. When Walden left NYK in a huff over not being allowed to play ( the then new game baseball ). Do to an argument which had ensued between the first and second floor during a lunch break. ( The managers of the first and second floor were called into Col Bradleys office and forbidden to play )They being independent English and German stock who had left Europe because of wages and also being told what they could or could not do in the old country. Immediately told the good Col Bradley to ( to use a current vernacular ) rub it on his chest. or take a hike, or shove his job where the sun do not shine. Unfortunately this left them in a bit of a spot. You see while they had the knowledge they did not have the machinery ect needed to get the seed project going. At that point NKY was the only game in town . Well Not quite. There was another company in town the Ericsson Engine Company. In fact one of the owners of the company was the fellow who designed the Moniter ( I hope I have the right one it was the flat Northern ship with the turrets on top in the famous battle of the Moniter and Merrimac civil war ironclad fame ). In any event this company rented a small amount of space and machinery to start there fledgling Co operative knife company . Now this was not a knife company but they did have presses and lots of adaptable machinery. What you mentioned in your possible scenerio for the history of your knife did have some factuality in that when the cutlers left NYK rumor has it that some parts went with them ( just to give there project a head start). However knife blades if taken would have been blanks because they are the deliniating factor of the knife. Knife styles and patterns could be the same but blades would have to be distintive and differently marked. That being said the Walden CO.O or Walden C.O.O.P or similar is among the rarest of all the Walden markings in fact I have only seen one or two. They were actually press stamped one letter at a time ( in the earliest ones ). That is why they often vary a bit. When the fellows managed to get some resources together they moved the firm to what was then always known in town as the lower shop ( about a halfmile down stream from NYK. Which is now the Thruway Shopping center a supermarket. The whole history is really a bit much for a posting. However it should be noted that disgruntled cutlers is a reoccuring theme in this history NYK was started in Mattewan NY 1852 by disgruntled Waterville cutlers ( this tang marking is also among the rarest often never seen by collectors in a lifetime ). They moved to Walden in 1856 ( so they were only using the Mattewan tang for 4 years ). in 1856 the whole village of Walden took all the wagons in town and virtually all the towns people and help the company move to Walden from the other side of the Hudson ( that is how bad they wanted the industry in town). This same type of thing ( cutlers getting pissed off) happened at Walden knife about 10 or 15 years later they left Walden knife and went over to the other side of the mountain and started the Ellenville knife COOP. Now I have heard rumors that there is a tang marking ( Ellenville COOP ). I have never seen it or found it in a book it is a rumor. I recently did the appraisel for the largest known collection of Ellenville , Napanoch , Honk falls ect knives in the world. The owners grandfather was one of the original cutlers. He claimed to have the earliest marking and it did not say COOP it said Ellenville Knife. They had two versions The earliest is the rounded one. Unlike the Mattewan NYK or Walden COO the Ellenville tang was use for a much longer period so once in a while they do show up. There are other rare tangs but since I wanted you to understand some of the history and why your knife was a later one I will stop this narrative at this point. Now the chances are as I mentioned you might never get to see examples of these markings especially together and since i wanted to emphasize my point on why your knife was made ( Most likely after 1900 ) due to all these reasons especially the Walden stamp and the styles of early stamp impressions ). I have included pics of my personal examples of these knives. Now I may be wrong however this is my opinion and my reasons for it. I hope you enjoy the pics. LT PS as always if someone has some further information it is always welcome this is solely my opinion from my understanding and research.
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Post by orvet »

Don't stop now LT,
I was just getting into the history lesson.
Seriously this is fascinating to me. Please continue with the history at your convenience.

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Post by Gr8Scout »

Oh yeah, our LT in chief is on a roll now.

And funny how things change and don't change. LT writes of townsfolk helping a company move, because that wanted that firm in their city so badly. Nowadays, we give companies tax breaks, free land, promise them a well-educated workforce (making changes to the programs at the local community colleges and trade schools). Bottom line is get that business.

If I didn't wanna scare my cat right now I'd give a very loud, exuberant "Hell Yes! We got us the best knife forum on the net!"

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Post by Mossdancer »

Hi LT;
I am probably beleaguering the post but: here are a couple better pictures of the tang stamp. I think the bottom of stamp is hand punched individually. Check the period after the o. The o in some ways looks smaller than an upper case block letter. Please try to ignore coloration. Artificial light is all I had available. Your history lesson is fantastic and truly appreciated. Any further pics or words would be great also.
wb
Edit; The K also looks like from a different punch than the K in NEW YORK
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Post by lt632ret »

It is in my opinion a regular if somewhat rarer version Walden knife stamp used on this size knife and I believe it to be post 1900 but definitely not an early original vintage first Walden COO knife. The other blade is a New York Knife blade they were not made to be sold with one of each. However there were many people who could and still can do the work to build one that appears perfectly original. Sorry I could not be of more help. LT
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Post by Slimjim66 »

lt632ret wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:18 pm Thanks for the MFG I actually had forgotten who did what however that as I recall is correct. As far as my opinion being expert that is also a matter of opinion. However thankyou. Now the whole thing is about names Schrade Walden is a good collectors name these are sought after. another factor that is sought by collectors is an american product. Really this is an old story. Hammer brand was bought in the thirtys by imperial ( when NYK closed )and started producing shell handled knives under that mark . It certainly was not the same type of knife and was certainly a less expensive product and not of the same quality however the name and tang was recognized ( that is why i guess this is called IP intellectual property since apparently people are not smart enough ( intellectual ) to recognize that it is different. In any event it is an old procedure. Names like Walden Knife, New York Knife, Honk Falls ect are all owned by either Smokey or Taylor ( shush that is a big secret ). Variations and contracts using these markings appear every so often Schrade did a typical schrade stag contract of a NYK in the 80tys or 90tys . These still show up I have a few. A few people still buy them thinking they have bought a mint old knife that snuck by. As usual what you get is what you pay for. Sometimes people sell them and do explain that they are not original. In any event they are what they are. functional knives just not original.

That being said one of the interesting points of this particular scenario is that upon the acquisition of the name the product the new owner maker turns out is not usually not of the quality of the old knifes. As in the case of Hammer. Perhapes it is because of material expense, or MFG techniques . Personally I do not feel the quality of the Commy Schrade knives is presently up to the standards of the old Schrades . As far as the Bear and Camillus products make your own decisions I do not own any and do not plan to however here is another big secret . I hate secrets and will blab them in a minute so don't tell me any. ( Camillous had made certain Schrade knives for them ( on contract) for years . Both these companies were pretty tight ( owners even related so a lot of hush hush things went on. ). One model in particular was the large fruit knife ( I forget the model and am not going to look it up I think 102 ( correct me if wrong I am sure someone will ).

One interesting aside again that no one is aware of is that Canal Street Cutlery was originally going to be called Walden Knife . In fact I gave them a piece of original Walden knife stationary to use as a sample logo to get ideas for the new logo. This company was going to produce high quality knives similar to the original Walden knives product. As I said this would have been unusual usually the product is cheapened. They had acquired legal use of the name. Much the same as Taylor has use of the Smith and Wesson line by actually renting it on a yearly basis. However since the ( very similar ) Schrade Walden name was already set to go on the Camillous contracts . a legal action was threatened to stop use of the walden name. The info I received was that Canal would have won but it would have taken a couple of years and an estimated 40,000 dollars remember this was a fledgling new company so the name was changed ( to protect the innocent as they say. ). That by the way is why it is now Canal St Cut instead of Walden Cut.

As far as collectibility it is in the eye of the beholder. If these companies go out tomorrow if laws change who knows. I just put a card of shur snap knives that could be bought in the 40 tys and 50tys on another thread these cost a dollar or two then now that complete full board is several thousand dollars. There was an orange paratrooper knife made by Schrade Camillous and Logan Smythe the Schrade and Camillous versions were OK ( not great ) but the Logan Smythe was really lousy . it is the one worth the most why?? Because at this point you cannot find one in decent condition that still works. Supply and demand. So there are many facets to collectability. As far as buying the old Schrade knives the regular editions such as an american 8-OT there will be many around for a long time they made millions. I would not doubt that your children will be able to find one in original clampack for there kids. However as with any subject some stuff is rarer and the old Schrades in some cases, are worth large amounts. However you can't have them because I want them all. If you check the auctions on ebay old stores flea markets ect you will find plenty of the later regular model and perhapes some older ones. In the mean time you will be well on your way to becoming a Schrade a holic addict and may well acquire full blown Schraids. LT PS I hope this helps.
do all shur snap jumbo jacks have shrinkage on the handles?
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Re: LT, I need your expert knowledge

Post by lt632ret »

Most of these will have some degree of shrinkage. In a lot of cases it can be minimal to not even being noticible , A lot depends on how these were stored used ect. These were not made to be high end knives but rather card knives. Some of course can have developed a lot of shrinkage over the years. I have found that the yellow handled examples while perhapes the most eye catching are the most prone to some shrinkage. If kept unused and pristene the shrinkage can (sometimes ) be kept to a minimum. I am attaching some pics of my NEW OLD STOCK jumbo card. complete and original never off the board. I took a few pics of the handles whre you can see these ( except for the yellow ) show little or no shrinkage who knows perhapes it was just that the plastic handle was a bit off when made any way these complete boards they hard to find in this condition Regards LT.
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