Old Keen Kutter Knives
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks for the kind comments Joe, John, Mike and Roger. Missed you at the show, Mike.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks Dan, missed not being there for sure. Glad you got some gems.
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Dan you certainly made a good decision in making Keen Kutter brand your collecting focus. They are well made and the variety of patterns is very wide. There will always be ones you have yet to find.
Please excuse my 'confusion' but did E.C.Simmons manufacture these knives or are they contract knives ?
kj
Please excuse my 'confusion' but did E.C.Simmons manufacture these knives or are they contract knives ?
kj
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
E.C Simmons Hardware Co. was a hardware company who sold pretty much everything. However, they took knives very seriously, having salesman who were dedicated to selling knives specifically. Prior to 1902, a lot of their knives were made by the Walden Knife Co. and likely some other manufacturers as well? In 1902, Simmons bought the Walden Knife Co. From that time until sometime in 1922 the vast majority of their knives were manufactured by Walden. The name Keen Kutter had been use since the beginning and the wedge and bar logo was adopted in 1905. In 1922 Simmons merged with Winchester. Winchester took over manufacturing of the knives and Simmons looked after the distribution. In 1929, Simmons and Winchester went their separate ways. From then until July 1940, when Shapleigh bought out Simmons, knives were manufactured by Winchester and Camillus, and maybe some other manufacturers?kootenay joe wrote:Dan you certainly made a good decision in making Keen Kutter brand your collecting focus. They are well made and the variety of patterns is very wide. There will always be ones you have yet to find.
Please excuse my 'confusion' but did E.C.Simmons manufacture these knives or are they contract knives ?
kj
Sorry for the longwinded answer to a simple question. However, to me, Simmons was more than just a hardware distributor of knives, as knives were important enough to the company that they bought a cutlerly company and subsequently merged with another one.
There is more information on this on page 23 of this thread.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
and maybe some other manufacturers?
Schrade made knives for them as well. More recently Bear has made Keen Kutters.
SSk
Schrade made knives for them as well. More recently Bear has made Keen Kutters.
SSk
SSk Mark “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.” Ronald Reagan
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
SSK, sorry, forgot to comment on your posted knife. Great that you found blades for it, looks good!
Yes, Schrade did make Keen Kutters, but not for Simmons. The Schrade made KKs are from the 1950s after Shapleigh took over the name. I focus on the pre 1940 Simmons Keen Kutters.
Yes, Schrade did make Keen Kutters, but not for Simmons. The Schrade made KKs are from the 1950s after Shapleigh took over the name. I focus on the pre 1940 Simmons Keen Kutters.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks Dan, I lost my book on Keen Kutters and couldn’t remember the time frame for Schrade.danno50 wrote:SSK, sorry, forgot to comment on your posted knife. Great that you found blades for it, looks good!
Yes, Schrade did make Keen Kutters, but not for Simmons. The Schrade made KKs are from the 1950s after Shapleigh took over the name. I focus on the pre 1940 Simmons Keen Kutters.
I wish the blades had been the correct size, but it’s hard to find the exact right blades for this one. There are no “donor knives” out there to choose from on this model.
I’m still awed by the pearls that were posted, those are incredible.
SSk
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Here is a Walden letter dated 1926 showing they were the sole makers of KK knives.
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Good info Dan, just for the record Simmons did not actually buy Walden knife. When George Weller, a principle share holder retired Simmons purchased his stock in the company. They gained a controlling interest in the company. This was pretty much how Simmons did business. When possible they would gain control of the quality and availability of the products they sold. Many if not all of the reference books state that Winchester moved all the equipment out of Walden and that production in Walden ceased but that is simply incorrect. Mikes letter here is dated 1926 and the auction papers are dated 1928. I’ve read that worked actually ended in 1927. What knives were actually made there Is anyone’s guess. I spoke on the phone not long ago with the Walden historian and she told me that Enders was making knives in there for a time. I’ve read where Enders worked for Simmons and had a unique relationship with them.
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Dan & others thanks so much for these E.C.Simmons/Keen Kutter details. It is a bit complex: Simmons owned the knife company that was making their knives but they did not run the knife company. Depending on how you look at the business end E.C.Simmons might qualify as the manufacturer of the K.K. knives. The relationship between E.C.Simmons and the knife manufacturing companies adds intrigue to collecting these knives. There is a lot to figure out for the beginning collector.
kj
kj
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
KJ, when Simmons gained a controlling interest in Walden knife they installed many of their own people. Especially in the office. It does get a little complex to follow any knife company. This particular story is tough. My approach has been to focus less on the knives and more on the business aspect. Winchester’s grand plan for cutlery was to take their massive manufacturing capacity and purchase Napanoch knife for their quality through skilled workers, Eagle for their advanced assembly line style equipment and Simmons for their massive marketing ability. With Simmons they gained Walden knife and the keen kutter line. So in my opinion the way to figure out how Winchester utilized all the resources is to study the equipment itself. Luckily it is well documented. It does get a little nutty.
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks for posting that letter, Mike, very interesting that Walden was the sole maker of Keen Kutters that long after the Winchester/Simmons merger!
James, that is a lot of great information, where do you find this kind of stuff out? My internet search skills would seem to be very poor, I can never find that kind of information. I bet you could write a great article for Knife Magazine on Walden/Simmons/Winchester.
James, that is a lot of great information, where do you find this kind of stuff out? My internet search skills would seem to be very poor, I can never find that kind of information. I bet you could write a great article for Knife Magazine on Walden/Simmons/Winchester.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Dan, the info is gathered from by piecing together info from multiple sources. Unfortunately I’m spending more these days on books then knives. Check out a book by String Cooper called “Old Walden”. There is a lot of good info in there. Let me know if you can’t find it I’ll send you a link.
Jay
Jay
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Jay, I have read the 7 page excerpt from "Old Walden" that, I believe, is on www.schrades-r-us.com? All the internet searching I can do does not come up with any links to the entire book. I have tried googlebooks, ABE books, Amazon and various searches with different key words, however, I can not come up with any reference to the entire book. So, If you could send me a link that would be great.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Dan, I’ve been using excerpts as well. I looked and your right it is not possible to find the book for some reason. I bet the Walden historical society would have a copy but I’m guessing most of the info we are interested in is in the material we have though. I need to figure out how to post a link here. I found some great info on NYK co that relates to Walden knife as well.
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks Jay.
I have just finished paging thru the American Cutler magazine issues from 1919 to 1923 inclusive. The letterhead Mike posted, where Walden says they are the sole maker of Keen Kutter pocket knives, was first used as an ad in the November 1922 issue of the magazine (after the Winchester/Simmons merger). All Walden ads in the 1919 thru to October 1922 issues are the same as the letterhead Mike posted, except they say they are the sole makers of the Press Button knives.
I have just finished paging thru the American Cutler magazine issues from 1919 to 1923 inclusive. The letterhead Mike posted, where Walden says they are the sole maker of Keen Kutter pocket knives, was first used as an ad in the November 1922 issue of the magazine (after the Winchester/Simmons merger). All Walden ads in the 1919 thru to October 1922 issues are the same as the letterhead Mike posted, except they say they are the sole makers of the Press Button knives.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/common/nysm/f ... vol1_0.pdf
Dan, check this out. It’s a lot of info to digest but I think you will find it interesting. There are many things that pertain to what was happening at Walden knife. Specifically the capital investment NYK made around 1905. At this time NYK went to Drop pressing their blades and you can see production went up as the number of employees fell. At the same time Walden’s employees went up. This is during the time Simmons touted their knives as being hand forged from the finest Sheffield steel. Their is a lot there but the numbers are pretty fascinating to me. Check it out.
Dan, check this out. It’s a lot of info to digest but I think you will find it interesting. There are many things that pertain to what was happening at Walden knife. Specifically the capital investment NYK made around 1905. At this time NYK went to Drop pressing their blades and you can see production went up as the number of employees fell. At the same time Walden’s employees went up. This is during the time Simmons touted their knives as being hand forged from the finest Sheffield steel. Their is a lot there but the numbers are pretty fascinating to me. Check it out.
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
A couple of nice ones, Roger! Certainly a massively thick blade on that Simmons jack.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
That jack is one hefty looking knife Roger.
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WANTED: Shapleigh Diamond Edge branded Schrades in good condition.
WANTED: Shapleigh Diamond Edge branded Schrades in good condition.
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
I just rehandled this old Keen Kutter. Here is a link to part of how I rehandled it.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=62846
I believe it's near 100 years old. I've done a lot of research and still have some questions about dating it.
I've only seen one other knife, like this and it happens to be in this thread (page 14): knife7knut posted his, on July 17th of 2015. I wish his had my blade and I had his handles. I've looked through numerous catalogues. The only place I saw one like it is in the 1917 Simmons catalogue.
Note how the Keen Kutter logo, is not italicized. The logo appears like this in the 1890 catalogue; however, I could see no barlow knives. The following was the only thing I could find...in the 1917 catalogue. Although the picture shows a spear point...the option for the clip point is listed. I did not see anything with the upright logo in the 1910, 1912, 1936 or 1939 catalogues. That leaves a lot of gaps. So, I'm thinking between 1917 and 1936. If anyone has a copy of Sellen's book, on Keen Kutter identification and could provide any additional info, I'd greatly appreciate it.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=62846
I believe it's near 100 years old. I've done a lot of research and still have some questions about dating it.
I've only seen one other knife, like this and it happens to be in this thread (page 14): knife7knut posted his, on July 17th of 2015. I wish his had my blade and I had his handles. I've looked through numerous catalogues. The only place I saw one like it is in the 1917 Simmons catalogue.
Note how the Keen Kutter logo, is not italicized. The logo appears like this in the 1890 catalogue; however, I could see no barlow knives. The following was the only thing I could find...in the 1917 catalogue. Although the picture shows a spear point...the option for the clip point is listed. I did not see anything with the upright logo in the 1910, 1912, 1936 or 1939 catalogues. That leaves a lot of gaps. So, I'm thinking between 1917 and 1936. If anyone has a copy of Sellen's book, on Keen Kutter identification and could provide any additional info, I'd greatly appreciate it.
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
VERY nice Doc B! Those handles look like they could be used as files.
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Josey Wales: "To hell with them fellas. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms."
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