Old Keen Kutter Knives
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
A new to me 1898 3/4. This one has the same tang stamp as the two jacks I picked up at OKCA this spring (ears at the top of the wedge and Made in USA instead of the usual St. Louis Mo, under the Keen Kutter). Last pick is my two 1898 3/4's side by side.
Dan
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Very nice EC Simmons collection Dan, you have almost more of those than my total collection of all my knives!!!
Bill
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Got to say I'm drooling over your bone handled knives Danno, especially that dogleg and the big jack.
Same for that equal end bone knife of yours Roger. You guys have excellent taste.
Same for that equal end bone knife of yours Roger. You guys have excellent taste.
Greg
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Very fine examples of the Toothpick pattern here Dan. Old jigged bone is so nice.
The profile of the blades do not look the same. The 'dip of the clip' seems deeper in the lower knife blade. Is this just illusion from the upper blade being sharpened down some ? or were the profiles different when new ?
kj
The profile of the blades do not look the same. The 'dip of the clip' seems deeper in the lower knife blade. Is this just illusion from the upper blade being sharpened down some ? or were the profiles different when new ?
kj
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
thanks for the comments, Bill, Greg and Roland.
The blade shapes definitely have some differences, as Roland pointed out. The top one is sabre ground on both sides: the bottom one is sabre ground on the mark side and flat ground on the pile side. The centre pin is placed slightly farther back on the bottom knife. The centre pin is hand peened on the top knife, while being spun on the bottom knife. The cap (rear bolster) is also slightly longer on the bottom knife. The 1898 3/4 was offered for sale in the Simmons catalogs from 1913 through to 1940, and also in the Shapleigh 1942 catalog (from Sellens). It would have been made by at least three different factories over this time period and I would expect some differences over that time period.kootenay joe wrote: The profile of the blades do not look the same. The 'dip of the clip' seems deeper in the lower knife blade. Is this just illusion from the upper blade being sharpened down some ? or were the profiles different when new ?
kj
Dan
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
thanks for the comments, Bill, Greg and Roland.
The blade profiles definitely have some differences, as Roland pointed out. As well as the blade profile differences, there are some other differences between the two knives: the top one is sabre ground on both sides while the bottom one is sabre ground on the mark side and flat ground on the pile side; the centre pin is placed slightly farther back on the bottom knife; the centre pin is hand peened on the top knife, while being spun on the bottom knife; and, the cap (rear bolster) is also slightly longer on the bottom knife.
The 1898 3/4 was offered for sale in the Simmons catalogs from 1913 through to 1940, and also in the Shapleigh 1942 catalog (from Sellens). It would have been made by at least three different factories over this time period and I would expect some differences over that time period.
[/quote]kootenay joe wrote: The profile of the blades do not look the same. The 'dip of the clip' seems deeper in the lower knife blade. Is this just illusion from the upper blade being sharpened down some ? or were the profiles different when new ?
kj
The blade profiles definitely have some differences, as Roland pointed out. As well as the blade profile differences, there are some other differences between the two knives: the top one is sabre ground on both sides while the bottom one is sabre ground on the mark side and flat ground on the pile side; the centre pin is placed slightly farther back on the bottom knife; the centre pin is hand peened on the top knife, while being spun on the bottom knife; and, the cap (rear bolster) is also slightly longer on the bottom knife.
The 1898 3/4 was offered for sale in the Simmons catalogs from 1913 through to 1940, and also in the Shapleigh 1942 catalog (from Sellens). It would have been made by at least three different factories over this time period and I would expect some differences over that time period.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Is it common for Keen Kutter knives to have design differences but the same pattern number ?
Perhaps all KK patterns that were around for long enough to have been made by different manufacturers, show variation in design ?
There is a lot that could be learned about Keen Kutter knives. It is a 'complex 'brand'.
kj
Perhaps all KK patterns that were around for long enough to have been made by different manufacturers, show variation in design ?
There is a lot that could be learned about Keen Kutter knives. It is a 'complex 'brand'.
kj
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Sorry for the double post, not sure how that happened?
Sellens does list some variations in knives of the same pattern number. Things like slight changes in closed length, coined liners for certain years, handle material etc. I do have a couple of knives with differences from what Sellens lists: no coined liners, different handle material etc. It would be nice to have access to all of the Simmons catalogs which were put out over the 1905 to 1940 time period (there are 14 of them) and check them out personally. However, I don't, and Sellens did. I think he did a pretty good job of summarizing them, but I am sure he did miss some things. Also there are gaps of up to 4 years between catalogs and there may have been variations made that did not make it into any catalog.
I would think that most brands/manufacturers would have pattern numbers that show variations over the years, if the same pattern number was produced for a lot of years? I think an example might be scout knives having different can opener styles within the same pattern number?kootenay joe wrote:Is it common for Keen Kutter knives to have design differences but the same pattern number ?
Perhaps all KK patterns that were around for long enough to have been made by different manufacturers, show variation in design ?
There is a lot that could be learned about Keen Kutter knives. It is a 'complex 'brand'.
kj
Sellens does list some variations in knives of the same pattern number. Things like slight changes in closed length, coined liners for certain years, handle material etc. I do have a couple of knives with differences from what Sellens lists: no coined liners, different handle material etc. It would be nice to have access to all of the Simmons catalogs which were put out over the 1905 to 1940 time period (there are 14 of them) and check them out personally. However, I don't, and Sellens did. I think he did a pretty good job of summarizing them, but I am sure he did miss some things. Also there are gaps of up to 4 years between catalogs and there may have been variations made that did not make it into any catalog.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Very nice Dan love the knife and pattern
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Dan, outstanding example of the pattern Doesn’t look like it was ever sharpened! Great acquisition
Lloyd
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Great knife danno. Looks to be in very nice condition with just enough of the age showing to give it fantastic character. That pattern and the wood handles really appeal to me.
Greg
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Here is one i just found (in the house): E.C.Simmons 3 1/4" Congress Whittler, steel bolsters & nice old jigged bone. Might this have been made by Walden Knife Co. ?
kj
kj
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Roland, that looks like a K35277. Sellens says it was in the catalogs from 1905 thru to 1916, so yes, most likely a Walden made knife.
Dan
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks Dan. Wow, 100+ years old, still looks good and works just fine.
kj
kj
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Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Super nice Stockman !
This one is not marked "E.C.Simmons". Who is the likely maker ? and what is the date range ?
kj
This one is not marked "E.C.Simmons". Who is the likely maker ? and what is the date range ?
kj
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks! Keen Kutters are outside my comfort zone but I'm pretty sure this is a Camillus made Shapleigh. Sellens says it was made between 1939-1942. The pattern number has the 'K' underscored which I read somewhere is another tell that Camillus made it.kootenay joe wrote:Super nice Stockman !
kj
- Jason
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Nice knife, Jason! The "horns" at the top of the wedge tang stamp are also another indication of Camillus manufacture, although I am not sure if this is an absolute. Also, I believe that the K does not need to be underscored to be indicative of being Camillus made (on a knife with a stamped pattern number).
Dan
Re: Old Keen Kutter Knives
Thanks for that - there isn't a whole lot of Keen Kutter info out there. There's something I'm curious if you might know the answer to. After Simmons parted from Winchester in 1929, who made their knives until 1940 When Shapleigh took over and started with Camillus? I have two Keen Kutters I'll post later or tomorrow when I get home. Same pattern but one is Simmons and one is Shapleigh and they're identical. Without the tang stamp I'd swear they came from the same factory. The Simmons knife also has the horns.danno50 wrote:Nice knife, Jason! The "horns" at the top of the wedge tang stamp are also another indication of Camillus manufacture, although I am not sure if this is an absolute. Also, I believe that the K does not need to be underscored to be indicative of being Camillus made (on a knife with a stamped pattern number).
- Jason