Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by JAMESC41001 »

I was told to beware of collecting Holley knives because they were so often copies or fakes. I remember reading that Holley sometimes paid cutlers in parts, especially at the end when they closed. The way I understand it is these cutlers bought their own tools to work with them. I always wondered if a knife made at their workbench at home during the same period is truly a fake. I also wonder how much a hardcore Holley collector staring at the last hole to fill in his collection would care. Either way it is a very narrow market. 6k maybe. For 20k I would break in to the govenor's office and saw a leg off the desk. If I split it with him he would probably take the weight off while I saw. Would be interesting to hear what everyone would buy with a 20k budget provided to them. I know what I would get and it's not the one being discussed here.
P.S leave it to Mike to come up with the goods. We missed you at the NY show brother.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

Not a collector or chaser of rare New England cutlery, but prior to Mike's post I was under the impression that no known survivors of the Charter Oak knives existed and this whole discussion originated because the OP knife turned up in an Ebay auction in supposedly immaculate condition.

The 20K dollar price was based on its being the only extant example.

There are certainly sophisticated collectors capable of buying the knife at that price and not even worrying about it. I know one.

The Ebay knife did not sell, as I recall.

Please understand, I'm not calling el toro poopoo on Mike's post. Just relating what my previous personal understood knowledge of The Charter Oak knives happened to be.

And it's possible I'm confusing the no existing examples of The Charter Oaks knives with a Salisbury marked Holley as opposed to Lakeville. My mind does that to me at times. Although Stewart & Ritchie stated the same.

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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

kootenay joe wrote:I have just read this entire thread and i do not understand the very high value given to this knife ($20,000).
kj
Please go back and read page one. The $20,000 value has now been mentioned five times so I need to clarify what I originally said.
I think he was fishing with this auction to see how high a price it would achieve, probably had a $20K reserve on it.
I said he PROBABLY had a $20K reserve on it. I never said it was worth that kind of money and personally I don't know anyone in their right mind that would pay that for one. The OP knife was bid up to $6K and his reserve was not met so I was only speculating what his reserve might be.

Now on to the OP knife, I personally examined the knife it was and is legitimate the real deal a "mint" example complete with original paperwork. As far as I know he still has the knife he did not seem to care if he sold it or not and yes he was the guy that originally listed the knife on eBay that started this thread.

Original documents state knives were made in 1887, 1902, and 1911. The one's I have seen so far all had a sterling silver shield with "Charter Oak" in script.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

So I'm totally wrong in my recollection of no existing examples. ::woot::

The knife Mike posted does not have "Charter Oak" in script. ::hmm::

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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by galvanic1882 »

Not all of them were made exactly the same through the years. The other one I saw was marked on the shield the same as this one. Also like I said it's not my knife it's one that I will be helping some one sell!
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by kootenay joe »

Thanks for clearing up the "probably $20,000" statement. I went with this figure as it was re-posted a few times and not challenged.
Miller Bro's goes on to say: "Now on to the OP knife, I personally examined the knife it was and is legitimate the real deal a "mint" example complete with original paperwork. As far as I know he still has the knife he did not seem to care if he sold it or not and yes he was the guy that originally listed the knife on eBay that started this thread."

Wow ! That is some fine detective work to actually track down the knife in question and then somehow convince the owner to ship the knife to you for examination ?

D. are you able to elaborate on this at all ?

This is one of the most intriguing knife stories (threads) i have read.
I suggest that as 3 of these knives are now known to exist there likely are a few more out there. Better keep checking ebay listing including those for knife lots like "Bunch of Grandpa's old Knives B.I.N. $25".
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

galvanic1882 wrote:The other one I saw was marked on the shield the same as this one.
Mike is the shield sterling silver on that one?
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

RobesonsRme.com wrote:So I'm totally wrong in my recollection of no existing examples. ::woot::
Charlie

Charlie I am going to refer you to your own post on page one for that answer! :)
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

kootenay joe wrote: Wow ! That is some fine detective work to actually track down the knife in question and then somehow convince the owner to ship the knife to you for examination ?

D. are you able to elaborate on this at all ?
Yes I can elaborate on this. I didn't track him down or have him send it to me. Just by chance the following month I attended a local knife show, while I was shopping I noticed the knife in a dealer's case and inquired about it and asked if this was the one that was recently listed on eBay. He confirmed that it was and then I examined the knife at that time.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

So, did you run to the bank for $6300.00?
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

No, I already had it in my right front pocket ::nod::
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by kootenay joe »

Referring to the owner/seller of this Charter Oak knife Miller Bro's says: "As far as I know he still has the knife".
This suggests (or confirms) that the $6300 stayed in your right front pocket and that the knife did not accompany you home.
I had been guessing that you are now the owner of Charter Oak knife but i guess my guess is wrong.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by Miller Bro's »

Roland the knife did not come home with me.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by peanut740 »

Miller Bro's wrote:No, I already had it in my right front pocket ::nod::
MB,I like the way you roll.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by bighomer »

Yea buddy I'm with peanut , you know how to roll, het it ain't no step for a stepper huh ? ::nod:: ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu::
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by danno50 »

I know this is an old thread, but, I was browsing on ebay and ran across this one.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-MFG-CO- ... SwIYtdNQHt
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by dlr110 »

All right, I will be the dummy and ask the question. What is heaven's name makes this a $3,500.00 knife or anywhere near that price. Granted that knife might have a value of 2 or 3 hundred, but I'm not seeing it. I guess I need some basics explained to me. ::shrug::
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

Slapping a "Charter Oak" label on a piece of wood does not make it a priceless historic artifact.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by danno50 »

David and TwoFlowersLuggage: did you guys read through the whole thread from the beginning?
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by danno50 »

I had thought that this was a new example, however, I believe it is the same knife that galvaniv1882 posred on page 2 of this thread, back in Nov of 2016.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

Yes, I did read the thread. I understand what "Charter Oak" means, and I also understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without the proper provenance, I would not pay an extraordinary price for any collectible.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by kootenay joe »

This ebay seller has me blocked from many years ago. He did not like a question i asked about a knife he had listed. It was a straight forward question, not accusatory and one that other sellers would have simply answered. However he does have very collectible knives listed at all times with prices that are high.
I think this knife is legit and to the right collector perhaps worth close to asking.
kj

As a side note: does anyone know if Dave, dcgm4 who started this thread is still 'with us' ? He has not posted in a long time.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by galvanic1882 »

Yep your correct Dan I did have the knife up for sale but it never sold so it went back to the owner. The guy selling it now is selling knives for the same collector that has since passed away.
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by LongBlade »

kootenay joe wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:32 pm This ebay seller has me blocked from many years ago. He did not like a question i asked about a knife he had listed. It was a straight forward question, not accusatory and one that other sellers would have simply answered. However he does have very collectible knives listed at all times with prices that are high.
I think this knife is legit and to the right collector perhaps worth close to asking.
kj

As a side note: does anyone know if Dave, dcgm4 who started this thread is still 'with us' ? He has not posted in a long time.
KJ - That seller is abit bizarre and has been discussed here before... he is not a pleasant seller to deal with and despite his "Make An Offer" my experience is any offer below his Buy it Now price infuriates him and he comes back with "don't low ball me" - nice knives but he is a PIA... He also posts minimal photos and gets pissy when you ask for other photos :shock: ... (BTW - I wish I knew what happened to Dave - I corresponded with him offline for a few years - he was a young guy so hoping he is ok - he certainly was an avid collector and nice guy...
TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:14 pm Yes, I did read the thread. I understand what "Charter Oak" means, and I also understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without the proper provenance, I would not pay an extraordinary price for any collectible.
TFL - Provenance for the Charter Oak knife - :lol: :lol: ... would be nice but when Holley made these in the mid 1800s they were not thinking some collector would ever be buying these 150 years later - The Charter Oak was white oak and many items were made from it in the 1800s including many congressional seats and the governor's chair here in CT - the tree was in Hartford, capital of CT. Holley supposedly received some of the wood. The only way this could be definitely proven is scientific analysis which would not be possible... Now given that if an old Holley catalog exists with this knife or a similar one than some evidence may support it... in the end if you read the thread than some very knowledgable and experienced collectors think the knife is for real and the knife has some historic significance - its the price that is under question...
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Re: Incredibly Rare Knife on eBay - Holley Charter Oak(Possibly)

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

I get it - I really do - my point is that if you have an incredibly rare item that cannot be proven to be authentic, then you should not expect to receive a high price. That's simply the way it works in the high-end collectible markets. Whether or not it is *possible* to prove authenticity isn't relevant. And provenance doesn't always have to be an original signed letter from the maker to the current owner - provenance can come in all shades from white to black. The opinion of experts certainly counts. The opinion of experts that have actually examined the knife in hand (and don't have a dog in this hunt) would count for more than looking at a couple of small blurry pictures on the internet.
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