Simmons Hdwe Co. congress

[philco]

I recently picked up this Simmons Hdwe Co. congress at a local pawn shop. I have not found an exact match to the tang stamp in my reference books. A fellow collector I showed it to expressed some concern that only the two sheepsfoot blades had tang stamps. I'm not into it for a lot of money but I would like to know what you guys think.

[orvet]

I have a set of blades for a Camillus Congress that I got from Tom Williams. They are for a more recent production congress and both of the sheepfoot blades are stamped. When you think about it I guess it makes sense because the blades are the same. Most of the Camillus knives after about WW II only have the master blade tang stamped, but a congress has two identical master blades so it's easier just to stamp all of the sheepsfoot master blades rather than only stamping half of the blades produced.

That may be the same reason your knife has both master blades stamped but not the secondary blades.

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Phil, The bolsters look correct. I have one listed in my store that is very similar. Except mine has been used and the handles are worn down. Those blades look a bit suspicious to me. This is in really good shape, too good?
Mark

[danno50]

Nice bone on that one, Phil! Sellens says that Simmons put out an "extensive line of pocket knives marked Simmons Hardware Co. on the master blade tang was offered from 1935 through 1942." Yours could be one of those. It is a nice looking knife. Maybe cleaned?

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Have you been able to find that tang stamp somewhere? I haven’t seen that one and it isn’t in Sellens book.

[btrwtr]

Looks like the Boker USA and Primble congress pens that were made in the 60s. Nice looking knife.

[danno50]

Have you been able to find that tang stamp somewhere? I haven’t seen that one and it isn’t in Sellens book.

Mark, below are a couple of pics of a barlow, with the same tang stamp as the OP knife, which was posted over on Bladeforums. I am sure I have also seen this knife here on AAPK, but couldn't find it. Hopefully the poster takes no offence at me bringing his photo over from BF
Sellens really focuses on the Keen Kutter stamped knives and doesn't show any of the varieties of Simmons stamps.

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Dan, Thank you that helps. I have found Sellens book is very incomplete. I have this Keen Kutter collection I purchased of mostly really old stuff and I bet I can only find half of them in this book. So many model numbers do not match his, or the model number is the same but the description is off. Usually it is a handle material the book didn’t mention, or a shield that is different. Or sometimes the model number is preceeded by a series of numbers and it’s hard to figure out which number is the actual model number.
This is probably no big deal if you have one your come across from time to time. But trying to figure this out on 155 knives is maddening.
I appreciate the helpful information.
Mark

[JohnR]

Dan,that’s my Barlow,no offense and glad it may help. However I’ve always questioned that knife, I think the metal is okay but I think it’s been rehandled so if the handles are suspect it makes the rest of the knife suspect to me

[philco]

Nice bone on that one, Phil! Sellens says that Simmons put out an "extensive line of pocket knives marked Simmons Hardware Co. on the master blade tang was offered from 1935 through 1942." Yours could be one of those. It is a nice looking knife. Maybe cleaned?

Phil, The bolsters look correct. I have one listed in my store that is very similar. Except mine has been used and the handles are worn down. Those blades look a bit suspicious to me. This is in really good shape, too good?
Mark

I do think the knife has been cleaned. There is some light pitting on the tangs but not on the blades suggesting they have had the fluff and buff treatment.

[RobesonsRme.com]

I question both the OP knife and John R's Barlow.

I don't like the stamps. The letters look to have been individually, but quite accurately, struck.

Has anyone ever seen that Italicized font in the word "SIMMONS" before? Was that a known logo for the company and present on other items or paperwork? It matches their font for the KEEN KUTTER logo.

And the swedges on those sheepfoot blades are unattractively shaped and suspicious. The pulls are too long for the blades.

I am, by far, the least knowledgeable person re' Simmons, etc. I just find the knives off-putting.

Charlie

[RobesonsRme.com]

I did a Google Image search for "Simmons Hardware" and after viewing several pages of images, found this.

So, maybe I'm wrong again, as the word "SIMMONS" is like that on the knives.

Charlie

[JohnR]

Phil, for what its worth here is a KeenKutter K16, the pen blades are also unstamped on this model. Shape of mains is different but bone looks similar.

[philco]

Thanks John. I do think I see a family resemblance.

I appreciate everyone's comments.

[danno50]

Dan, Thank you that helps. I have found Sellens book is very incomplete. I have this Keen Kutter collection I purchased of mostly really old stuff and I bet I can only find half of them in this book. So many model numbers do not match his, or the model number is the same but the description is off. Usually it is a handle material the book didn’t mention, or a shield that is different. Or sometimes the model number is preceeded by a series of numbers and it’s hard to figure out which number is the actual model number.
This is probably no big deal if you have one your come across from time to time. But trying to figure this out on 155 knives is maddening.
I appreciate the helpful information.
Mark

I think Sellens did a pretty good job of summarizing the catalogs available. I believe the "incompleteness" comes from the gaps between catalogs. Sometimes 3 to 5 years between catalogs in the Simmons era. For the Shapleigh era there were very few catalogs available: 1940, updated to 1941, 1942 and 1958. I am sure there were variations in patterns, and perhaps different patterns, in the years between catalogs, that never made it into the catalogs, especially in the Shapleigh era. I know I rely too much on Sellens. However, I do study every Simmons era Keen Kutter posted on ebay and in the forums and enter them into a database (excell spreadsheet actually) with comments on pattern numbers, who I feel is the most likely manufacturer etc.

Dan,that’s my Barlow,no offense and glad it may help. However I’ve always questioned that knife, I think the metal is okay but I think it’s been rehandled so if the handles are suspect it makes the rest of the knife suspect to me

Thanks JohnR, I did know it was your knife and would have referenced you if I could have found it somewhere on AAPK. What leads you to believe that the handles have been changed, the bone looks very similar to the bone Camillus used on a lot of their barlows. Allthough the bottom pin does look extra large on yours?

I question both the OP knife and John R's Barlow.

I don't like the stamps. The letters look to have been individually, but quite accurately, struck.

Has anyone ever seen that Italicized font in the word "SIMMONS" before? Was that a known logo for the company and present on other items or paperwork? It matches their font for the KEEN KUTTER logo.

And the swedges on those sheepfoot blades are unattractively shaped and suspicious. The pulls are too long for the blades.

I am, by far, the least knowledgeable person re' Simmons, etc. I just find the knives off-putting.

Charlie

I have a 1930 catalog reprint in which "Simmons Hardware Company" is in the italized font at the top of every page. I am pretty sure I may have seen the same stamp on another knife besides Phil's congress and JohnR's barlow, but can't find it posted anywhere, so maybe not?
The long pulls and swedges are kind of wonky. I spent a few hours searching for a Camillus, or any other barlow, with swedges to match, but, was unsuccessful? I did find a couple of Camillus jacks that had a fairly similar long pull/swedge relationship as Phil's knife.

The bone and frame on Phil's knife definitely look right to me. I think Phil, with the knife in hand, is the one to assess the rightness of the blades. If the fit between backsprings and all four blades is good, the action is good and the blades all fit together properly in the blade well it could be a good knife?

[Sharpnshinyknives]

I think Sellens did a pretty good job of summarizing the catalogs available. I believe the "incompleteness" comes from the gaps between catalogs. Sometimes 3 to 5 years between catalogs in the Simmons era. For the Shapleigh era there were very few catalogs available: 1940, updated to 1941, 1942 and 1958. I am sure there were variations in patterns, and perhaps different patterns, in the years between catalogs, that never made it into the catalogs, especially in the Shapleigh era. I know I rely too much on Sellens. However, I do study every Simmons era Keen Kutter posted on ebay and in the forums and enter them into a database (excell spreadsheet actually) with comments on pattern numbers, who I feel is the most likely manufacturer etc.


Dan, Thank you for the response. I for one, would love to see your spreadsheets on this. That would be so helpful.
Thanks,
Mark

[Old Folder]

Phil;
In regards to your beautiful Simmons Congress, I was able to locate an identical picture (posted below) of your knife. I found it in the 1989 "Jim Sargent's" book.
Jim states the knife is: 4 1/8" inch. Does this length compare with yours??????
Unfortunately, Jim does not list any pictures of blade stampings, however he does list some other stamping information that may be of value.
One thing for sure, I would say your knife is original. The posted picture below is a perfect image of your knife, no date if given though.
If I am reading it correctly, Jim's stamping's would list your knife to be (c. 1940-1960)
Your knife is in superior shape compared to the pictured knife.
Due to the wear on the below knife, it appears as if the original owner had a preference to the smaller blades. Which is a good thing for us, it gives us the observation of the Long Pull, the Swedge, same Shield, Rivet placement, identical Bolsters, Bone Handles and rivet placement.
If you look closely at the Tang of the open blade on your facing right of the below pictured knife (depending on your computer resolution) you will notice it appears to be a two liner stamping. I can faintly make out "Simmons" on the top line, but it is there, just like yours Phil.
I think you have a untampered Simmons Hardware, 4 Blade, Light Bone Congress Knife.
I would call your knife a "Keeper" Phil.
I know many collectors here would find fault with knives being, cleaned or polished. Personally, I find nothing wrong with that.
Now...All we need is a official "Simmons Knife Stamping" date guide. Perhaps it will show up in our lifetime?

danno50, I have never seen a Barlow, or any other knife with "Simmons" stamped on the bolster either, but I feel that it's authentic.
Why? Well.... I have never been abducted by Space Aliens nor have I been accosted by a Ghost, but I believe they exist.

[philco]

Dan thank you so much for taking the time to dig up that listing. The length of my knife is 4 1/8 in. so that's a match. When I magnify the photo you posted of the knife it matches up to the tang stamp on my knife perfectly. Those odd looking swedges on the main blades are a match as well. I think you've found it !

[Old Folder]

Here is a picture of the 1989 "Sargent's" book I was referring to in my above post.
It was bright and shiny new 30 years ago. (But than...So was I)

[Old Folder]

Dan thank you so much for taking the time to dig up that listing. The length of my knife is 4 1/8 in. so that's a match. When I magnify the photo you posted of the knife it matches up to the tang stamp on my knife perfectly. Those odd looking swedges on the main blades are a match as well. I think you've found it !

That's wonderful Phil. Glad you could see the Tang also.
I enjoyed the research and came out with a little more knife knowledge.
4 1/8" woo hoo. You sir are a winner.

[danno50]

Excellent work digging up that information, Dan! Thanks from myself as well.