Outgas?

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edge213
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Outgas?

Post by edge213 »

What exactly is outgas of celluloid? What happens to the handles? How does it affect other knives stored close by? Anyway to prevent it? My daughter just purchased a Case Select peanut made in 2001 with candy striped scales, would that be celluloid? I know I have ask alot of questions, but would really appreciate the knowledge.
David
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jerryd6818
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Re: Outgas?

Post by jerryd6818 »

Welcome to AAPK. Glad to have you aboard.

Celluloid out-gasses when it starts to break down and decompose. Decomposition of Celluloid creates a very acidic gas that is extremely corrosive. First you will notice darkening of the metal around the handles followed by darkening of the blades above the line created by the knife's blade well. The part of the blade that rests in the blade well will not show these symptoms. Next the darkened portion of the blades will become rusty as the acidic gas of the decomposing Celluloid eats away at them.

If you suspect a knife's Celluloid handles are starting to outgas, isolate the knife. It will damage other metallic objects in the near vicinity. If it does turn out to be outgassing, the only cure is to remove the handles as soon as possible and dispose of them. If caught early enough, the knife can be rehandled by a competent knife mechanic. If the handles are not removed, the outgassing will destroy the knife. There are several pictures on the forum of the results of outgassing Celluloid handles. There are also links to articles written on the subject.

As far as your question as to whether the handles on your knife are Celluloid, I can't answer that.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by bladeguy58 »

Jerry I knew you'd come to my rescue! When I did the search yours was the one I was hoping he would find. How'd I do on the response! In my business we actually talk about outgassing all the time mostly referring to sealants, coatings, and trapped air.
Thanks!
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Re: Outgas?

Post by glennbad »

Here are 2 pics of classic outgassing on knives. The first was not my knife, the second is. I ended up putting new covers on the second. It is a serviceable knife now, but still has been permanently scarred by the outgassing.


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NCCO14.jpg
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Re: Outgas?

Post by bladeguy58 »

glennbad wrote:Here are 2 pics of classic outgassing on knives. The first was not my knife, the second is. I ended up putting new covers on the second. It is a serviceable knife now, but still has been permanently scarred by the outgassing.

bean1.jpg
NCCO-6.JPG
NCCO14.jpg
Do you think the newer Celluloid is as bad as the older ones or probably just as bad. That is a really great and scary example of how bad the damage can be from outgassing handles.
Richard
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Re: Outgas?

Post by glennbad »

If it is true celluloid, there is always that chance, no matter when it was made. We've even seen the more recent Bulldog cell knives go bad.

While it is also true that certain colors/shades of cell seem to do better than others, the outgas process can happen anytime, anywhere, for no reason at all.

Very strange and tricky stuff, that is why it is always good to keep cell knives apart from your regular handle material knives.
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edge213
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Re: Outgas?

Post by edge213 »

Thanks for the info, fellas. I just don't understand why it's still used.
David
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Re: Outgas?

Post by jerryd6818 »

edge213 wrote:I just don't understand why it's still used.
Especially since in consideration of it's lack of long term stability, it's kind of dangerous to make.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by bladeguy58 »

edge213 wrote:Thanks for the info, fellas. I just don't understand why it's still used.
I think they still use it because of the versatility of making different designs with it. I got rid of all of mine because it just wasn't worth the risk to me to have them.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by singin46 »

Yep, you can't get current materials, such as acrylic, to look anything like to celluloid. It was all in the process they used to melt and or heat the plastic that makes it unique to itself.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by FRJ »

And some of it is kind of easy to look at.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by Capt. Farrel »

They still use it on fountain pens and especially for table tennis balls. The stuff is so dangerous that if you are shipping larger quantities of table tennis balls they are considered as "hazardous goods" and have to be labeled accordingly. "Celloloid" sounds a lot like some kind of plastic but in fact the base material is Pyroxiline or guncotton! Yes, this is the stuff you put into your rifle cartridges! :shock: :shock: Unfortunately no plastic can be polished so nicely and has such brilliant colors as Cello. ::dang::
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Re: Outgas?

Post by knife-nut »

This link is for a article from the Oregon Knife collectors club, about celluloid. http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html
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Re: Outgas?

Post by Darksev »

I've never much liked the look of cell, or acrylic for that matter (that's maybe why I took so many acrylic GEC's off the market for rework lol) so that alone is enough for me to pass on it, but given all the other fun facts (one of the major "offgasses" is nitric acid, it can combust at temperatures as low as 212f if it's degraded, and I've seen it burst into flames when worked with a buffing wheel) I don't want it anywhere near my collection or my shop :)
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Re: Outgas?

Post by jerryd6818 »

Adam -- Took a stroll through your collection and all I can say is WOW!! There's some beautiful results there. I was a little disappointed that I didn't see a Camillus 72 in the lineup but maybe someday you'll remedy that situation. :mrgreen:
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by btrwtr »

For some collectors, myself included, celluloid can be hard to resist. Unfortunately an old rare specimen with unique or premium advertising handles that is in excellent condition today can be tomorrow's nightmare. The Fighting Rooster knives with celluloid handles from the 70's and on are notorious for outgassing to the point that I am somewhat surprised when I see one that hasn't decomposed. I've seen outgassing completely destroy knives to the point of actually breaking the liners and back springs.

The color and depth of the old celluloids is nearly impossible to reproduce. The modern celluloid waterfalls, candy stripes and Christmas trees etc. pale in comparison. I believe the quality manufacture of the old celluloids is largely a lost art. Do you think the manufacturers of today could produce a flag celluloid? A shadow pen knife with contrasting colors at the ends? Waterfall with the depth and movement of a 1920's knife? The examples that remain are unique and stand alone in their beauty.

I have worked with celluloid in my shop and it is very easy to ignite with only friction. Like Darksev says, one or two seconds of contact with an abbrasive belt or buffing wheel is all it takes. If it ignites you will smell or hear it burning but will not see a flame. It burns like alcohol with an invisible flame. I always keep a water quench bucket nearby just in case. The secret is to keep it moving and to not keep contact with any one part for any amount of time.

Old, scratched or ragged (not outgassing) celluloid can be cleaned up by using files and sandpaper of varying grits. You can fininsh with #0000 steel wool to give it a clean look. I usually will polish by buffing with a pink no-scratch rouge on an unsewn muslin wheel, just very lightly sweeping the celluloid over the wheel very quickly to avoid ignition.

If you question whether or not you have a knife with celluloid handles here is a way you may be able to tell. Rub the handle back and forth very quickly on a piece of denim or similar coarse fabric until warm and then check the handle for an odor of camphor. If you can smell the camphor the handle is celluloid. This is not a surefire (no pun intended) method of detection but it often works and I think it is directly related to the stability of the celluloid. The more camphor smell the less stable. No, I don't think you could possibly ignite the celluloid by doing this.

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Re: Outgas?

Post by Capt. Farrel »

Very good information Wayne, thank you! ::tu:: I am with you in regard of the beauty of Cello. If the price is right I will carry on buying them but store them in the open and not in my knife folders. ::nod::
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Re: Outgas?

Post by wlf »

Good to see you posting again Adam..

Case Classics,Fight'n Roosters,Bluegrass Winchesters,Buck Creeks are among the Latest that I know that are real gassers.

I think the Case Classic gassers led to the prolific amount of Prototypes with exotic handle materials. When originally made,you could put all the real prototypes in your hand. I think Parker first started getting rid of them as water damaged finds,before the prototype epidemic.

Here's some gassy Fight'n Roosters.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by Elvis »

All good info being passed along here! As far as the Case Candy Stripe mentioned in the OP, yes, it's celluloid. Why? Beats me. Case knows it's a ticking time bomb when used as knife handles as well as anyone, but they still used it on some of their "Select" line. I've had very good luck with my "Mother of Toilet Seat" knives by coating the scales with Ren Wax. I take special care to rub it into the seams where the handles meet the liners and where the shield is inlayed. I'm not saying this is a cure, just that I haven't had any go bad on me since I've started doing this. If it's luck, I'll take it. For my part, knife companies should have abandoned the use of celluloid when plastic was invented, but that didn't happen. One of the first signs I've noticed of out-gassing is the shield or bolsters starting to turn a bit brown. When that happens it's best to ship it to a reliable knife repairman for new handles. If you can catch it at that stage, I feel it's best to let the repairman remove the handles. The reason I say that is because I've gotten too many that have been damaged by someone taking the handles off without knowing the best way to do it. While I do keep some celluloid in stock in case someone wants a knife restored to it's original condition, I always try to talk them into another material first (The customer's always right, no matter how wrong they are.). ::facepalm::
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Re: Outgas?

Post by bladeguy58 »

Elvis wrote:All good info being passed along here! As far as the Case Candy Stripe mentioned in the OP, yes, it's celluloid. Why? Beats me. Case knows it's a ticking time bomb when used as knife handles as well as anyone, but they still used it on some of their "Select" line. I've had very good luck with my "Mother of Toilet Seat" knives by coating the scales with Ren Wax. I take special care to rub it into the seams where the handles meet the liners and where the shield is inlayed. I'm not saying this is a cure, just that I haven't had any go bad on me since I've started doing this. If it's luck, I'll take it. For my part, knife companies should have abandoned the use of celluloid when plastic was invented, but that didn't happen. One of the first signs I've noticed of out-gassing is the shield or bolsters starting to turn a bit brown. When that happens it's best to ship it to a reliable knife repairman for new handles. If you can catch it at that stage, I feel it's best to let the repairman remove the handles. The reason I say that is because I've gotten too many that have been damaged by someone taking the handles off without knowing the best way to do it. While I do keep some celluloid in stock in case someone wants a knife restored to it's original condition, I always try to talk them into another material first (The customer's always right, no matter how wrong they are.). ::facepalm::
Hey Elvis you may have come upon something with the Ren Wax. In the waterproofing business we put coatings on floors to keep the vapor from coming up through the floor and ruining whatever is laid on the floor and in that same sense that wax may be keeping those vapors sealed in the knife. Here in the Silicon Valley some high tech firms won't use Silicone to do any sealing in their chip labs because they say they give of invisible gas that can harm the chips just like our knife handles so outgassing can be bad in a lot of ways.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by knife7knut »

To add to what was already posted;the really insidious part of out-gassing that many times it will show little or no damage to the surface of the celluloid but is raising havoc where the scales meet the liners.What is really strange as well is I have had several examples where one side of the knife completely deteriorated and the other was untouched!One example;an old Novco letter opener knife advertising the US Navy pre-flight school had completely eaten away the scale and brass liner while the other side was perfect.
Some of the examples pictured:A Sta-Sharp 2 blade knife completely ravaged and the stainless steel blades unmarked.
A letter opener knife I cut apart to use the blade to re-construct a Presto letter opener looked fine on the top and under the scales advanced corrosion.
An Aerial Cutlery Co coke bottle folder;again relatively unscathed on one side and destroyed on the other.
I had a Buck Creek lockback that I got brand new and within a year it started to outgas.I kept cleaning it and one day I went to release the lock and the back end of the knife broke off.The scales looked like new on the outside.
On the other end of the scale I have a Novco easy open that looks as good as the day it came out of the factory almost 90 years ago.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by Elvis »

No doubt! I've seen it eat through a lot of liners, usually a crack from the center pin going straight up. Next thing you know, you're making a new set of liners for that old restoration. I don't know if the key is catching it early before any detoriation starts, or if there is a key at all. I've got 100 year old knives whose celluloid looks brand new and almost new knives that I've had to rip the handles off of. I think we can all agree that it's tricky stuff no matter how you slice it.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

The National Knife Museum has a procedure to combat outgassing celluloid.

They thoroughly clean the knife, then coat it with Krylon Clearcoat.

Might not be for everybody, I suppose.

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Re: Outgas?

Post by singin46 »

That's interesting, Charlie, never heard of this before.
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Re: Outgas?

Post by cato »

for awhile i have been washing my cell in a solution of baking soda and water, to lower the ph balance
they say out- gas .. i think ph has got out of control.
then other chemicals have came in contact with it i.e lighter fluild, some type petro base cleaner
the brass started to canker, so forth and so on,

after i wash , lite sand if needed, clean and buff little, tape off, then i put super glue over it
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