Question about Damascus

[Steve Warden]

I may be wrong but I may have seen somewhere that case gets their damascus (or at least some of it) from Devin Thomas. I only have one case with damascus, but it seems to perform better than their cv and ss, plus it looks way better.

Now THAT'S a beaut!

[coffeecup]

Sounds like a job for Coffecup Haven't heard from him recently;is he still around?

Naw, he went away for a while.

Off the top of my head:
There are two basic ancient steel-making practices that lead to the legends of "damascus steel".

Chronologically-speaking, the first was probably "laminating" or "pattern-welding". Bars of bloomery iron (a "bloomery" was an early refining technique, resulting in basically-pure iron particles fused together in a spongy mass) were carburized, then forge welded together face-to-face. The resulting bar was drawn out, folded, and forge-welded again (and again and again). This beat out remaining impurities and distributed the carbon through the resulting bar. Japanese sword-makers work with these techniques; the techniques Moran re-introduced are a variant.

The other is commonly called "wootz" steel, originating in India. This was the earliest form of crucible steel, with carbides distributed through the steel. The source of the iron ore plays a critical role in the outcome of wootz production, due to the way impurities play into the final alloy. I think Anosov was the first guy in modern times to make this, a couple guys at Lawrence Livermore did some work with it, and Pandray and Verhoven (sp?) did some fascinatiing work showing the importance of impurities in the iron ore to the final outcome. There are a few knifemakers working with it today, for customers who have deep enough pockets. The techniques to forge it are unlike conventional steels.

Both methods were in use (if not common) by the 5th century BC, and were in use until the 1700s-1800s, and later to a lesser extent. When we consider the legends and stories about the wonders of "damascus steel", it is important to keep that time frame in mind. We generally hear about the best of them--the legendary blades--but not the mill-run blades or even the dreck. Either can produce a fantastic blade, but the skill of the smith/blade grinder/polisher were equally-important factors.

As for the quality as a using blade. . . . The laminated Japanese blades are among the best made with that technique, but part of that is the composite structure of the blade. Different steels are used for different portions of the blade, combined with differential heat-treatment. You get the edge-holding advantages of a hard edge with the resiliency of the softer/springier back. Even today, a good Japanese blade is probably the ultimate combat sword.

The only wootz blades I've tested were of my own making, and I'm honestly not sure how well they compare to the blades of old. My blades compared well with Boye's dendritic steel, possibly with a bit more flexibility (blade length on my test examples were different, so I'm not certain about that).

Blades made with Moran's techniques (and variations) are all over the map, and we should probably factor in "cable damascus" and "chain damascus". Carbon percentages of the bases steel vary, as does the typically milder steel used (to produce a more-dramatic pattern) and the amount of time the steel is hot, the number of folds, etc. The problem is carbon migration: if you laminate O-1 and wrought iron, and fold it 20 times, you get a steel that compares about the same as 1085. Most cable and chain blades test similar. Fold it fewer times, keep an eye on the temps when welding and forging, and you can get a blade that approaches the average Japanese blade.

But that isn't everything. If you examine the edge of a laminated blade under extreme magnification, you see layers of micro-serrations. A good laminated steel blade will cut tissue (meat and hide) faster and longer, and with less effort, than any other steel I've tried.

For most of us, where we are talking about a utility knife or hunting knife, "damascus" gets points for pride of ownership and possible improved utility. If the damascus offers more "utility" than we need, we are back to buying bragging points. You make your choices, pays your money, and takes your chances. Good old 1095 and similar steels get me through most days, and if I were to upgrade, I'd probably go for 52100B rather than damascus of any sort.

Unless for some reason I needed a sword as a primary combat weapon, in which case I'd be locating a good Japanese wakizashi.

[bighomer]

Great stuff coffeecup thanks for sharing and welcome back.

[kootenay joe]

Very good discussion here. In the past i have read long threads comparing & debating the relative merits of Damascus vs mono-steels. The discussions included input from metallurgists as well as knifemakers and experienced users. These were long reads and i came out with lots of info but little clarity.
The link provided by Jerry (on page 1) to a brief article by William Woods gives the best understanding that i have read. If you missed it, i suggest the 5 minutes (or less) it takes to read, is most worthwhile.
kj

[terryl308]

I may be wrong but I may have seen somewhere that case gets their damascus (or at least some of it) from Devin Thomas. I only have one case with damascus, but it seems to perform better than their cv and ss, plus it looks way better.

KnifeSlinger#81, Your Case knife sure looks like Devin Thomas Damascus. I have used that same pattern before, excellent material in my opinion. I am surprised he could supply a factory with a lot of it however. Terry

[MattBPKT]

Here's another resource you may find interesting: http://knifeinformer.com/damascus-steel ... ers-guide/

Also, what are your thoughts on Damasteel?

[mrwatch]

I have a few. 1 Davey Blades USA 2 I'd have to look it up.

[Quick Steel]

This is an early knife by the formidable Jerry Fisk. He was declared a National Living Treasure by the University of North Carolina. He has traveled the world teaching others the art of knife making. His blades are among the most sought after by the "high rollers." My acquisition was a fluke and produced a grail knife I did not think was achievable.

[Quick Steel]

Some more Damascus blades.

[Quick Steel]

Anyone have any information on this? On ebay there are a variety of Damascus blades identified as Laguiole, a fine old French company. However these have various handle materials and are identified as having been made in Pakistan. If Laguiole is outsourcing these to Pakistan it would be disappointing. However I'm wondering if the standard Laguioles are simply being bought by a Pakistan manufacturer and then being rehandled for sale. Would appreciate any input.

An interesting aside: Some years ago there was a report of the Laguiole sales rep at the Blade Show being frustrated because people kept asking about the hardness of the blades and being disappointed to learn that it was around 55. The rep is said to have asked, "What the hell are Americans cutting that they require such hard blades?"

[BrianHarris]

damascus steel got rusted if not cared according to their required process but even some user complains that its also got rusted inspite of taking all measures, beside that damascus steel is very sharp and also strong as compare to other steels its just needs proper care

[bfgodlesky]

Nothing is cooler than being in the timber dressing a deer and having another hunter come up to ya and ask " hey, whats that knife you're using (pattern welded blade)....... awhere didja get it? Its a pattern welded blade and came outta my shop.