WW1 Rigging Knives

[kootenay joe]

Quote: "The copper bale was made specially for non spark around munitions I believe?"
I thought the reason was because copper will not rust in the marine environment.
My Camillus "C131" is shown in a 1915 Camillus "Sketch Book 3" along with a few other similar designs. All are on the same 4 3/4" frame. There are notes in the Sketch Book but Frank Trzaska says most likely made to show for a military contract, USA or Canada. "C131" is among the knives not chosen for production.
kj

[kootenay joe]

Here is a 5" 'four line' old Camillus Sailor's Jack. This pattern is not shown in Mike Silvey's book so it is a civilian pattern. Heavy duty knife !
Looks similar to the the E.C.Simmons Keen Kutter in O.P., other than this Camillus has a Marlin spike.
Is the KK also 5" ?
kj

[Treasure Trawler]

The KK is 4” long. The Camillus in the last picture I believe is also used for war...Very nice. It looks a lot like the Schatt & Morgan sailors knife which I know was used for military use.

[orvet]

The EC Simmon measures 4”. This must be a WW1 military knife? The copper bale was made specially for non spark around munitions I believe?

I thought the reason was because copper will not rust in the marine environment.
kj

I believe KJ is correct about the purpose of the copper bail.
I would think the biggest danger of a spark from a pocket knife would be from the blades.

Here is a 5" 'four line' old Camillus Sailor's Jack. This pattern is not shown in Mike Silvey's book so it is a civilian pattern. Heavy duty knife !
Looks similar to the the E.C.Simmons Keen Kutter in O.P., other than this Camillus has a Marlin spike.

kj

I believe your knife is the same as the Camillus I posted on the previous page in this thread. Yours however is in much nicer condition. I don't think these are very common. They were made for the Canadian Navy during World War I. The arrow inside of the circle is the stamp of approval indicating it was made for the Canadian government, much like the broad arrow on knives made for the British government.

Does the marlin spike on your knife have the circle with the arrow stamped on it like this?

Camillus 1915 Marlinspike marking.jpg (35.32 KiB) Viewed 1878 times

The fact that the knife was made for the Canadian Navy and not the U.S. Navy may be why Mike did not include that in his books on US military pocket knives.

[kootenay joe]

"Does the marlin spike on your knife have the circle with the arrow stamped on it like this?"
Yes it does ! And a very clear well done marking, but i missed seeing it until now.
My "S131" knife Frank T. thought might have been one of the candidates shown to the Canadian Navy. It is a 1/4" smaller at 4 3/4".
Thanks for pointing this out.
kj

[1967redrider]

The only thing I wonder about with the copper bail is, the rest of the knife is steel- bolsters, pins and blades. I believe the pin in the bail is brass.

[JohnR]

Here is the Schatt&Morgan version, this one does not have the Canadian broad arrow mark.

[kootenay joe]

John, that is a very fine knife, by far the best condition i have ever seen for this pattern.
Seems odd that Schatt & Morgan would 'tool up' to make this pattern for civilians. It would not be a big seller and to set up all the machinery to make it would be expensive. Is it possible that Camillus made this knife for Schatt & Morgan ?
kj

[JohnR]

John, that is a very fine knife, by far the best condition i have ever seen for this pattern.
Seems odd that Schatt & Morgan would 'tool up' to make this pattern for civilians. It would not be a big seller and to set up all the machinery to make it would be expensive. Is it possible that Camillus made this knife for Schatt & Morgan ?
kj

Roland thanks, I suspect anything is possible, I purchased this one from a longtime Schatt&Morgan collector in Titusville several years ago. He stated they were made by Schatt&Morgan so I have to take him at his word as he had far more knowledge about Schatt than I do.
The pattern was made by several manufacturers American and English, Wostenholm made a lot of them, I've observed that the American made ones have bone handles and the English tend to have hard rubber or fiber black handles.
It is an interesting pattern, big knives built for a purpose. By the way your 2 blade is a fantastic knife.

[kootenay joe]

Contracting out is something nearly all knife manufacturers seem to do at times, or did before 'modern off shore times'. Often the only way to know is to closely compare 2 differently marked knives and see if all dimensions, pin hole placement, etc. are identical, not just 'similar'.
Is this a pattern that you are actively collecting ? If so and you are interested in my Camillus, feel free to send me a PM.
kj