All About Pocket Knives

Hey all, I picked up these pks and am wondering if these are both WW1 Rigging knives? The top I’m pretty sure is Camillus but makers mark is rubbed off and is missing a bale. I believe this is the same one listed in Michael Silvey’s military pk’s on page 38. The bottom is an EC Simmon Keen Kutter. I can’t seem to find any information. The jigging is awesome on this.

TT, It’s been awhile since I handled Keen Kutters, but from what I can see that tang stamp is more modern than WW1. I don’t have Allen Sellens book anymore but I am sure there is a tang stamp chart here on AAPK.
No idea on the other one.

Here’s a better look at the tang stamp.

I couldn’t see the St Louis, that does put it possibly in that range. I thought at first it was the stamp that was used last.

It’s not listed in the military book but it sure looks like it must have been used in WW1. I’ve seen Schatt & Morgan’s built the same way and they were used in WW1.

I have no help on the possible Camillus. The Keen Kutter certainly looks like an older knife with the rattail iron bolster, old style can opener and the copper bail. It is not listed in Sellens. If it was made for the military maybe it was not listed in the catalogs for sale to the general public?

This may help, other than yours having bone handles and no marlin spike they appear to be the same, from Levine's book.
I have read that the U.S. Navy would not issue pocket knives with spear blades at that time, why I do not know.

Treasure Trawler,

I have a Keen Kutter exactly like yours, with the copper bail and all. Nothing about it in Sellen's book (as danno50 stated) that I have found, I looked in Sargent's and Voyles too.

John

I’ve heard somewhere that knives were included in lifeboats which wouldn’t have had the marlin spike. It’s a really well made knife you’d think there’d be more information.

Here is my 4 3/4" Camillus 'Sailors Jack'. It has "S131" in black ink written on back of master blade. I asked Mike Silvey about this knife and he replied he had never seen one like it and referred me to Frank Trzaska. Frank said he had never seen one either but he has a lot of old Camillus paper work. He found a "Sketch Book 3" from 1915 that shows a sketch of "S131", my knife. Frank says Camillus likely made a 'few' like maybe 5 to show the knife but it was never put into production.
kj

Here's the one I have, E C Simmons Keen Kutter St. Louis USA. Half stops, snaps like a bear trap.

Is the E.C.Simmons 4 3/4" closed , not including the bail ?
kj

Treasure Trawler wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:49 am Hey all, I picked up these pks and am wondering if these are both WW1 Rigging knives? The top I’m pretty sure is Camillus but makers mark is rubbed off and is missing a bale. I believe this is the same one listed in Michael Silvey’s military pk’s on page 38. The bottom is an EC Simmon Keen Kutter. I can’t seem to find any information. The jigging is awesome on this.

16139B0A-BC4E-4B49-8A38-F97DFA9400D5.jpeg

I'm not sure your top knife is the same as the one on page 38 of Mike Silvey's book. Yours has a rat tail bolster and the Camillus shown in that picture does not. Your knife does not have the bail that the Camillus has and I don't see a hole in the handle where the the bail would've been.

Your larger knife reminds me somewhat of my Canadian Navy rigging knife made by Camillus during World War I. The tang stamp is dated 1915.
Note the last picture show an arrow in a circle which indicates it was a knife made for the Canadian Navy. I am told they use that mark much like the Royal Navy uses a broad arrow marking.
You might check your knife for for an arrow in a circle, the can opener looks to be very similar.

Whenever they are, I like your old knives. It's hard to argue with that bone!

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:50 am Is the E.C.Simmons 4 3/4" closed , not including the bail ?
kj

Mine is pretty much exactly 4".


That's a cool knife, Dale.

Here’s a better pic of the bale hole on the Camillus in question. Take a look at the pins and the bale hole. It measures 4 3/8. I believe they match up to the WW1 Camillus on Pg38.

The EC Simmon measures 4”. This must be a WW1 military knife? The copper bale was made specially for non spark around munitions I believe?

Quote: "The copper bale was made specially for non spark around munitions I believe?"
I thought the reason was because copper will not rust in the marine environment.
My Camillus "C131" is shown in a 1915 Camillus "Sketch Book 3" along with a few other similar designs. All are on the same 4 3/4" frame. There are notes in the Sketch Book but Frank Trzaska says most likely made to show for a military contract, USA or Canada. "C131" is among the knives not chosen for production.
kj

Here is a 5" 'four line' old Camillus Sailor's Jack. This pattern is not shown in Mike Silvey's book so it is a civilian pattern. Heavy duty knife !
Looks similar to the the E.C.Simmons Keen Kutter in O.P., other than this Camillus has a Marlin spike.
Is the KK also 5" ?
kj

The KK is 4” long. The Camillus in the last picture I believe is also used for war...Very nice. It looks a lot like the Schatt & Morgan sailors knife which I know was used for military use.

Treasure Trawler wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:34 pm
The EC Simmon measures 4”. This must be a WW1 military knife? The copper bale was made specially for non spark around munitions I believe?

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:49 pm
I thought the reason was because copper will not rust in the marine environment.
kj

I believe KJ is correct about the purpose of the copper bail.
I would think the biggest danger of a spark from a pocket knife would be from the blades.

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:48 pm Here is a 5" 'four line' old Camillus Sailor's Jack. This pattern is not shown in Mike Silvey's book so it is a civilian pattern. Heavy duty knife !
Looks similar to the the E.C.Simmons Keen Kutter in O.P., other than this Camillus has a Marlin spike.

kj

I believe your knife is the same as the Camillus I posted on the previous page in this thread. Yours however is in much nicer condition. I don't think these are very common. They were made for the Canadian Navy during World War I. The arrow inside of the circle is the stamp of approval indicating it was made for the Canadian government, much like the broad arrow on knives made for the British government.

Does the marlin spike on your knife have the circle with the arrow stamped on it like this?


The fact that the knife was made for the Canadian Navy and not the U.S. Navy may be why Mike did not include that in his books on US military pocket knives.

"Does the marlin spike on your knife have the circle with the arrow stamped on it like this?"
Yes it does ! And a very clear well done marking, but i missed seeing it until now.
My "S131" knife Frank T. thought might have been one of the candidates shown to the Canadian Navy. It is a 1/4" smaller at 4 3/4".
Thanks for pointing this out.
kj

The only thing I wonder about with the copper bail is, the rest of the knife is steel- bolsters, pins and blades. I believe the pin in the bail is brass.

Here is the Schatt&Morgan version, this one does not have the Canadian broad arrow mark.

John, that is a very fine knife, by far the best condition i have ever seen for this pattern.
Seems odd that Schatt & Morgan would 'tool up' to make this pattern for civilians. It would not be a big seller and to set up all the machinery to make it would be expensive. Is it possible that Camillus made this knife for Schatt & Morgan ?
kj

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:15 am John, that is a very fine knife, by far the best condition i have ever seen for this pattern.
Seems odd that Schatt & Morgan would 'tool up' to make this pattern for civilians. It would not be a big seller and to set up all the machinery to make it would be expensive. Is it possible that Camillus made this knife for Schatt & Morgan ?
kj

Roland thanks, I suspect anything is possible, I purchased this one from a longtime Schatt&Morgan collector in Titusville several years ago. He stated they were made by Schatt&Morgan so I have to take him at his word as he had far more knowledge about Schatt than I do.
The pattern was made by several manufacturers American and English, Wostenholm made a lot of them, I've observed that the American made ones have bone handles and the English tend to have hard rubber or fiber black handles.
It is an interesting pattern, big knives built for a purpose. By the way your 2 blade is a fantastic knife.

Contracting out is something nearly all knife manufacturers seem to do at times, or did before 'modern off shore times'. Often the only way to know is to closely compare 2 differently marked knives and see if all dimensions, pin hole placement, etc. are identical, not just 'similar'.
Is this a pattern that you are actively collecting ? If so and you are interested in my Camillus, feel free to send me a PM.
kj