Spoon Jack/Hobo....US 1861

[98src]

Internet search showed several similar to this knife, but I didn't find one with the US over 1861 stamp. Any ideas as to whether this is really from 1861 and, if so, who was the maker? I found a similar one that was marked HOLLEY.

[Gunsil]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Since there were no US issued pocket knives in 1861 I believe the marks were added recently to deceive the buyer. These are generally called "Red Cross" knives and were made by many companies during WW1. Holley, Camillus, Union Cut Co, and others made them. Many were included in packages sent to our troops overseas in Red Cross packages with things that would be useful for our soldiers. Hopefully you didn't pay a lot for it. The U and the S are uneven as done individually whereas real US marks on issue items were made with one stamp with both letters and they are even.

[zzyzzogeton]

May just be my eyes/monitor but it looks like it reads G.S., not U.S.

[98src]

Not your eyes, just my bad photography. It is definitely U.S. and was not stamped with individual stamps. I have seen several Civil War swords stamped in a similar manner.

[peanut740]

It is as Gene says a WWI Red Cross hobo.

[ea42]

No markings on the mark side tang of that blade? Like the others have said, 1917 at the earliest.

From Levine's:

Eric

[Gunsil]

Not your eyes, just my bad photography. It is definitely U.S. and was not stamped with individual stamps. I have seen several Civil War swords stamped in a similar manner.

The bottom of the S is below the bottom of the U. You will never see any CW swords like that they are ALWAYS even. Even the good repros of CW swords or others blades such as bayonets will have single stamp with even letters. The 1861 looks like it was etched in with an electric pencil or acid rather than a stamp. There were NO folding knives issued to any troops during the CW, study your military knife history. I think you want it to be CW but it has just been altered and definitely as several have said here 1917-1919. Maybe ask here next time before you buy. If you dislike the knowledge here you can try asking Frank Trzaska on his American military knife website, he will tell you the same.

[98src]

I don't think you are hardly the expert you claim to be. A Google search turns up plenty of Civil War knife/spoon combinations. The stamp IS NOT etched by hand .....it is STAMPED! My knife might not be Civil War era, but it sure ain't a FAKE. I have been collecting knives and guns for nearly 60 years and I have been fooled....just not lately. Ask Tony Foster if I know what I'm talking about. He knows me by my EBAY name ( lovon ).

[peanut740]

Wow,you know Tony Foster,I'm impressed now.

[ea42]

Lovon, I'm sure your knife is legit for what it is, a WWI knife, it's just that the stamp most likely isn't and was probably put on there some time after the knife was made (post 1917). The fact that the stamp is on the pile side of the blade makes it even more suspicious. The blades on all of these knives that I've seen; Ulster, Holley, Camillus, even Case (that one was a bit suspicious due to it being buffed to death), all had maker stamps on the mark side, or the side with the nail nick. If yours has no makers mark it was very possibly ground off to draw attention to the 1861 stamp. The civil war era hobo knives were take-apart knives with forks. They'd slide apart into two pieces. They didn't make any of these one piece versions during that time. Do you have a photo of the mark side tang?

Eric

[btrwtr]

I missed the part where Gene claimed to be an expert.

[Gunsil]

Yes, there were slot knives around during the CW but NONE of them were US issued knives and none had a US mark on them. A google search will also show knives that some think were CW but weren't. "Everything you read on the internet is true", Abraham Lincoln said so. I happen to know Tony too, have sold him knives in person, doesn't mean he knows much about other than Case knives. In fact at the big Case show in Bradford he didn't know that the famous WW2 Smatchet was made by Case. Like I suggested, ask Frank, the leading expert on US military knives. No matter what was used to put those marks on your knife they were put on there after 1917, and probably in the last few years. Also, the CW era "hobo" knives were slot knives that came apart unlike the Red cross knife you have. I am sorry you refuse to believe you have an altered knife, one can lead a person to knowledge but one cannot make that person think. The well known CW era slot knife by Union Knife Co of Naugatuck, CT says "Union" on one blade but that was the company name, it was not issued to Union troops. You may have been collecting guns and knives for sixty years, so have I, doesn't mean I know everything about all guns and knives, but I do know what a Red cross knife looks like and I know there were no folding knives issued to US Army troops in the CW era and none that were marked with the GI issue mark of U.S. Go ahead, ask Frank, and argue with him, he IS the US military knife expert. Since you are such an expert I am amazed that you got burned. Did you post it here to get accolades for finding such a rare knife or did you post it wondering if it was correct? If the latter, you got your answer and simply don't like it. Like I said earlier, if you had asked here before buying it you probably would not have done so. Enjoy your week and enjoy your knife.

[98src]

btrwtr....read his response below your comment if you think that he is not claiming expertise. I joined this forum to learn about knives that I didn't know anything about and, perhaps, to comment on questions relating to an area that I did know something about. I DID NOT join to have a member make remarks about my knife calling it altered and fake when I know that it is as manufactured. It probably is a "Red Cross" Hobo. Still doesn't explain the U.S. over 1861 and who made it. It will go with my Camillus Hobo. And, when the day comes that I have to ask anyone on this forum as to whether I should or should not buy a particular knife, that is when I will stop buying knives. By the way, I paid $58.00 shipped.

[ea42]

98scr I asked above but you may not have seen it, do you have a photo of the front tang on the blade?

Eric

[98src]

Pictures of both sides added

[knife7knut]

I hesitate to get into this discussion but from the most recent picture of the "U.S. 1861" it appears to me to have been done with a pantograph.I base this on where the serif on the bottom of the number 1 drops down slightly. This is characteristic of the tool moving slightly when changing directions.The tool would begin at the upper left side of the number and go upward until it reaches the uppermost part and then proceed downward and move to the left;stop and then make the bottom stroke.
For some reason most pantograph machines will vary slightly on the horizontal stroke but not on the vertical strokes which is why there is no variation at the top of the one.
Not an expert by any means but I have observed pantograph etchings on many things(mostly awards and trophies)and all of them seem to exhibit this trait. As an aside it looks like a nice knife and thanks for posting it.

[98src]

Certainly NOT done with a pantograph. Pantograph engravings have the tell tale round dot at the beginning and end of each character. That dot is not present on this blade. Also, most likely have to remove the blade to be able to mount it in the machine....and this blade has not been out of this knife. Everyone seems to be an expert on pantographing and hand etching with an electric engraver. If this marking was done with a hand held electric etching tool, I would like to find that person because I could get him/her a lot of work. I have actually used a Hermes Pantograph machine at two different employers and own one now ( never had any characters for it so I have never used it ). Anyhow, I appreciate everyone's input and agree that it is probably a WW1 "Red Cross" HOBO. 'Nuf said.

[Gunsil]

Post of the mark side sure looks like original maker mark has been removed. I agree with K7K, when enlarging the photos it looks like the product of a pantograph engraving machine. I stand by my original statement that it is a Red Cross knife that has been altered to deceive. the knife itself is not a fake, the markings are. Potatos, pahtahtos, it is still not a CW knife and would be listed as a counterfeit. Go on, ask Frank Trzaska, see what he says and get back to us, perhaps you don't wish to hear from one of the leading experts on US military knives. You don't say where you are from or I would suggest you take it to my friend Larry Thomas at his American Military Edged Weapon Museum in Intercourse, PA. Larry has one of the largest collections of US military knives in the world and has at least one of every knife made for and issued by the US military since 1787. He is a fine gentleman and you could learn much from him and his incredible museum. (If any of you other members are ever in that area it is an amazing place for knife guys, call before you go because although Larry is in his 80s he still has tables at better gun shows.) You could also post it on the other big knife forum and see what they have to say since you dislike our opinions and knowledge here. I never claimed to be an "expert", I just said I know Red Cross knives and American military knife history pretty well. I do personally know a couple of the real experts including Frank and Larry, they have taught me for years. That is why I say if you don't believe me, ask them. I have not been trying to harass you, you asked about and I gave an answer with fact behind it. I did begin by saying I hate to bear bad news. Not that other very knowledgeable members here have confirmed you have a knife made in 1917-1919 and the date on the knife can't be right Some of them are considered experts in their fields of knife collecting among we members.

Sorry, I'm a slow typist and was typing this while you posted and I can't find a delete button Nuff said fo sho

[98src]

I went back and read my posts carefully.....and nowhere did I ever say it was a knife issued by the military. Was it intended to be used by military personnel ? I think it was.

[btrwtr]

btrwtr....read his response below your comment if you think that he is not claiming expertise. I joined this forum to learn about knives that I didn't know anything about and, perhaps, to comment on questions relating to an area that I did know something about. I DID NOT join to have a member make remarks about my knife calling it altered and fake when I know that it is as manufactured. It probably is a "Red Cross" Hobo. Still doesn't explain the U.S. over 1861 and who made it. It will go with my Camillus Hobo. And, when the day comes that I have to ask anyone on this forum as to whether I should or should not buy a particular knife, that is when I will stop buying knives. By the way, I paid $58.00 shipped.

Not sure why you posted the knife asking for input if you didn't want any. There are many people on this site that I would consider an expert in one area or another but I doubt any would claim to be an expert. That is the type of statement that carries weight when made by another rather than the individual.

He gave you good advice on your knife and since you didn't appreciate his input and you said

I don't think you are hardly the expert you claim to be

although he made no such claim. Gene has a wealth of knife knowlege as many people here do and I think it a bit disrespectful to come here and put those words in his mouth. I also believe the knife has had the U.S. and date added some time after manufacture and not in the year 1861.

I've been collecting knives for 40 years now and I can't make a sure claim that a knife has not had a blade replaced or removed and reinstalled. Many times I can tell but I've done enough repair work to know that many times I can't. You can tell though.

[98src]

I asked for input, but I certainly didn't ask for people to start telling me my knife was a FAKE or had the marking added AFTER it was manufactured. I have looked at enough vintage knives to know when a marking is stamped at the time of manufacture or has been added later through any number of means. I have accepted that it is a WW1 hobo and I appreciate everyone's opinion. However, I do not accept anyone's opinion that the knife has been altered.

[kootenay joe]

" I do not accept anyone's opinion that the knife has been altered."
Do you consider putting markings on a knife after it has left the factory to be 'altering' the knife ?
Or, do you limit "altering" to swapping out parts of a knife ?
kj

[98src]

Yes, I consider putting marks on a knife after it left the factory to be altering.