Ever heard of a solid wishbone back spring on a whittler?

[Boji]

So, going thru the late hubby's whittler collection and matching the knives with the descriptions he kept in a note book, this is what he wrote:

W & S Butcher Sheffield, Pre 1850, solid wishbone back spring, sheepsfoot & 2 pen all marked(1 broken)Ivory handles.

I can ID the split back springs but this is different. I'll get some pictures in daylight later.

[QTCut5]

That sounds interesting...I can't wait to see some pics of it.

[glennbad]

I've seen 1 or 2 examples in pictures, but I can't remember who showed them.

[herbva]

What Q said - yes, very interesting. I would like to see pictures too.

[Boji]

Here are some pictures. If you want more, a different angle or whatever I'll try.
Wish the knife was in better condition.

[tongueriver]

That was the old forged way of doing it. They are rare as hens' teeth now. Very nice to see one.

[Boji]

Does this type of back spring go by any other name?

[edge213]

Does this type of back spring go by any other name?

Split spring, I believe.

[Mumbleypeg]

Does this type of back spring go by any other name?

I’m not aware of a consensus on any term. I have always called it a “true split backspring”. I think just “split backspring” is an apt term, because that’s what it is. But that horse is already out of the barn.

What most call “split backsprings” nowadays would be better described as “wedged backsprings” because of the tapered wedge used to separate them. JMO

You have a rare piece, seldom seen nowadays. I don’t know how common they were even 100 or more years ago. I’ve seen a lot of old whittler pattern knives that were made using a wedge between the springs so the ones like yours may have been an anomaly even then.

Ken

[edge213]

Does this type of back spring go by any other name?

I’m not aware of a consensus on any term. I have always called it a “true split backspring”. I think just “split backspring” is an apt term, because that’s what it is. But that horse is already out of the barn.

What most call “split backsprings” nowadays would be better described as “wedged backsprings” because of the tapered wedge used to separate them. JMO

Ken

I'm probably not correct, but I have always called this type "split spring whittler" the one with the wedge "split back whittler".

[tongueriver]

As long as we are on the subject, why do people persist in using the term "back springs?" There are no side springs, top springs or any other kind of springs on a slipjoint knife. They are just 'springs.' Yep; I do have some anal tendencies when it comes to language. Sorry about that. One annoyance deserves another.

[Boji]

Interesting.......
His collection included over 150 whittlers at one time, I know he sold/traded some and I have sold a lot of them. This is the only one I have seen. There is another case of knives I haven't even looked at, who knows? Maybe I'll find another.
I'm guessing that it is very unlikely for this style to be found on an American made knife. Probably English or maybe German?

The ones with the wedge I call split back (no mention of "spring") so guess I'm good with that.
How about "Look at the pictures, what you see is what you get" just kidding but I have been tempted at times.
Actually, I think Wishbone is a good descriptive term but probably not commonly used.

[FRJ]

As long as we are on the subject, why do people persist in using the term "back springs?" There are no side springs, top springs or any other kind of springs on a slipjoint knife. They are just 'springs.' Yep; I do have some anal tendencies when it comes to language. Sorry about that. One annoyance deserves another.

I agree with Cal.
The English called them spring knives. (who better to acknowledge)

As to Boji's knife; I would call it a split spring.

[ea42]

As long as we are on the subject, why do people persist in using the term "back springs?" There are no side springs, top springs or any other kind of springs on a slipjoint knife. They are just 'springs.' Yep; I do have some anal tendencies when it comes to language. Sorry about that. One annoyance deserves another.

Cal, in knife shops the part of the knife where the blades drop in is referred to as the front. The side opposite is the back. Since the springs on most pocket knives ride along the "back" of the knife, they're called backsprings as opposed to lobster springs which reside in the middle of the knife or knives such as bartenders or marlin spikes where the springs are also partially internal.

Eric

[FRJ]

As long as we are on the subject, why do people persist in using the term "back springs?" There are no side springs, top springs or any other kind of springs on a slipjoint knife. They are just 'springs.' Yep; I do have some anal tendencies when it comes to language. Sorry about that. One annoyance deserves another.

Cal, in knife shops the part of the knife where the blades drop in is referred to as the front. The side opposite is the back. Since the springs on most pocket knives ride along the "back" of the knife, they're called backsprings as opposed to lobster springs which reside in the middle of the knife or knives such as bartenders or marlin spikes where the springs are also partially internal.

Eric

It's a conspiracy I tell ya!!

[tongueriver]

Gotta love dem lobster springs. And then there are the covered springs. Me, I'm just ready for Spring. Not this fake Spring- the real deal with 80° wx and birds singin' and all of that good stuff after a long Winter, and the Covid Year From Hell.

[ea42]

Amen to that Cal. It keeps teasing us here with a warm day or two and then drops right back down to cool and windy March-like conditions.

Eric

[richard]

Here are some pictures. If you want more, a different angle or whatever I'll try.
Wish the knife was in better condition.
IMG-5025.jpgIMG-5026.jpgIMG-5027.jpgIMG-5028.jpgIMG-5029.jpgIMG-5030.jpg

lovely old english knife. that knife making firm, made knives for the american market. mainly fancy bowie knifes. i like the knife just the way it is .

[richard]

So, going thru the late hubby's whittler collection and matching the knives with the descriptions he kept in a note book, this is what he wrote:

W & S Butcher Sheffield, Pre 1850, solid wishbone back spring, sheepsfoot & 2 pen all marked(1 broken)Ivory handles.

I can ID the split back springs but this is different. I'll get some pictures in daylight later.

Run by brothers William and Samuel Butcher and founded in 1830, W & S Butcher started manufacturing cutlery from Eyre Lane and as the business expanded they bought more workshops and spread onto Brown and Charles Street, and later onto Arundel Street. This created the Butcher Works complex, which fronted onto Arundel Street. W & S Butcher were one of the first firms to trade with the American market, and as early as 1823 Samuel was travelling to New York to collect orders for the company; in 1827 he was living in Charlton Street with his American wife Rosa and trading from a store in Maiden Lane, New York. By the 1850s around 500 workers were employed by the Butchers, making them one of the largest cutlery firms in Sheffield at the time. This meant that were sometimes disputes with the Trade Unions over working practices; in April 1850 William Butcher had a canister of gunpowder thrown at his bedroom window after a lengthy dispute.

The firm was renowned for their ornate Bowie knives, which were made for the American market. These included acid-etched decoration of patriotic slogans and eagles, for example. Other knives had elaborate cross-guards or carved handles.

Butcher Works was renovated and preserved with the help of an EU funding grant, preserving the fabric of the building and courtyard, and creating flats, offices and shops.

[Dinadan]

Incredible knife, Boji. I have never seen one of those whittlers with the truly split back spring. And very few photos of one. I bet I am not the only one on this forum who would appreciate a full spectrum of photos from every angle and with the blades open and closed. I do not think I have ever seen even six photos of one of those knives.

[Gunsil]

Barry (ifartsmella) has an English one with a W crown R mark 1831-1837. They are definitely early and hard to find. True examples of early English cutlery expertise. Boji, I saw a lot of the ones you sold on the bay, quite a remarkable collection!! The congress pattern whittlers are rare unto themselves, that split backspring makes it reaally cool.

[Boji]

I will get more pictures for you guys, might be Sunday cuz I work all day tomorrow.
His notebook has a W (crown) R listed but it has a name beside it so possibly was sold or traded. No mention of what type of spring.

[eveled]

What a great knife.

If I may. I’d like to ask some questions unrelated to this knife.

If it’s been addressed before I apologize and if you don’t want to answer I understand.

First I’d like to say sorry for your loss.

Now the questions. Do you resent being left with his collection? Do you wish he disposed of it before he passed? Sounds like his note book has been an asset. Is there anything else he did that made it easier to deal with? Anything you wished he did differently?

Thank you.

[jerryd6818]

Boy Howdy, ole Tommy (Carrmillus) would be droolin' all over himself over that one.

[Boji]

What a great knife.

Now the questions. Do you resent being left with his collection? Do you wish he disposed of it before he passed? Sounds like his note book has been an asset. Is there anything else he did that made it easier to deal with? Anything you wished he did differently?

Thank you.

That question comes up frequently on various firearms forums.
This could get long, so bear with.
The whittler collection was a very small part compared to the total number of knives he had. But it was the most special to him so it has been left for last.
I'm guessing the total number of knives would have been 3,000 to 4,000. I've been selling knives on eBay and thru consignment auction for nearly 6 years.
I likely let some good ones get away too cheap but that's life.
I have no resentment at all. He often shared the why & what of knives he acquired. So I had the basic knowledge of what is a congress knife, a whittler, blade shapes, handle material and so on. He also had several reference books, Goins', Levine's, Sargent's have been a lot of help and the internet of course! I actually enjoy the research.

To make matters more interesting he also collected modern high $$$$ custom knives, straight razors, cigar cutters, Stetson Hats (16), Native American pottery, mainly Hopi (about 80 pcs), Native American silver jewelry, smoking pipes, hand-carved duck decoys of all sizes, hand made ice fishing decoys, and lots of Ducks Unlimited items, fly fishing stuff and I'm probably missing something!'

P.S. too dark and dreary to get more pictures today.