British and Commonwealth Military Knives

A place to discuss & share pictures of military related knives and tools. Conversation relating to objects of war and peace from all eras welcome.
Checkered past
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Checkered past »

Here's a couple more knives that arrived yesterday. Purchased a bit in the blind. First one the blade is marked DMF and is C broad arrow stamped. It has a sheepsfoot blade. With the sheepsfoot, steel shackle and the can opener it has I assume WWII. I can't seem to find too much info on this one.

The second is marked Endure Sheffield England on what I think is very hard rubber scales. The other side not shown has a substantial buckle in it. The blade is marked J. BEAL & SONS. I suspect early WWII production with the copper shackle. No acceptance mark that I can find. And again, not too much info I can find. It's not as long as the 6353, but longer than the WWII clasps

Let me know if you can shed anymore light on these. Figured I couldn't go too wrong for $20.
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Second knife first. Flook lists this style under Miscellaneous World War Two knives. He sites examples by Wade & Butcher and Joeseph Allen and Sons and drawings of the pattern from Maleham and Yeoman. I have one made by McClory marked with their Scottia brand. They came with and without marlin spike. The Wade & Butcher was marked with a W/|\D stamp. The J Allen and mine are unmarked. Apparently the pressed fiber scales were the standard for this style. The scales on mine are also badly warped and bowed and the inside of the liners rusted. Whether these were issue or private purchase is unclear. They could also be post-war for the civilian market. Many of the cutlers had stock on hand when the war time contracts were cancelled at the end.

Your first knife is mentioned in Flook under Canadian knives. He cites Lawrence "Canadian Military folders of World War One" as defining the mark as OMF but states that on the example photographed for his book the mark looks more like DMF. As of the time of printing of Flook's book (1999) the origin of the mark was unknown.

I have made a bit of a study of Canadian WWI knives looking through the records for military contracts for folding knives. With the exception of some specialty hospital knives the only makers I've found are Thomas Turner who produced a knife very like yours from 1914 -1916, Wade and Butcher who had a large contract for 6353/1905 knives, Camillus and Schatt & Morgan who both made a very 6353/1905 like knife except with bone scales. The Schatt & Morgan tin opener was also different. I have not found any mention of a maker who would match up to either OMF or DMF.

Nice catch.
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Eustace
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Eustace »

cottage hill bill wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:39 am ...............................

It is not related to the topic, but I want to thank you for your participation in this forum. I really learn a lot from you!
It would be very interesting to show your collection :D ::handshake::
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Thanks. The collection lives in a couple of drawers in a machinist's chest, not a very good display set up. I'm hoping to figure out a decent display format sometime.
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These are the WWII folders. There are a couple of pretenders, the SOE style in the lower right corner is a current production one and the one center left end with the ring and brass escutcheon on the scale is an 80's Swiss army clone by Rodgers. There are a couple Belgian and Italian copies of the British WWII knife in there as well.
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Here is the WWI drawer. couple of clunkers in there too. The bone scaled one lower center is a civilian knife of unknown provenance as is the metal scaled one center left end. Who knows, if it gets slow this week maybe I can get them out and take some decent pics.
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cody6268
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cody6268 »

That's a lot better organized than most of my knives are. I've been torn between metal machinist's chest (Kennedy), wood machinist's chests (old G Gerstner, and Craftsman sold some as well), or the crappy ones Harbor Freight sells for a fraction of the other two. Metal Kennedys can often be had cheap, but the shipping usually kills any deal you can find.
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

cottage hill bill wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:15 pm Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.
Staying a bit off track;I usually prefer the wooden boxes to the metal ones as they seem to resist trapping moisture. Just my opinion but metal tool boxes seem to form condensate inside when exposed to a damp environment or drastic temperature change.
That said I like the Kennedy boxes as well and I still see them at yard sales occasionally for reasonable money(usually).One of my best scores was a Kennedy 7 drawer top box and roll around for $5! A little rusty but an easy cleanup.I use it to store a lot of my sign making supplies that aren't prone to moisture damage.At one time I had about a dozen Kennedys but of late have thinned the herd a bit.I have several unusual ones including a carpenter's box(over 3 ft. long)and a tiny one(model 613)I use to keep my watch repair tools in.Also a really old one that I keep small ammunition in. I may have to do a post in the General off topic forum about them.
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Hiron
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Hiron »

Hi all, new to the forum.
I am having trouble finding some info on a knife I came across.
I believe it was made by Empire Cutlery as this is the only marking on the knife.
I hope that some one one here may have some idea about its manufacture date or any other facts about these knives.
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Nephilim
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Nephilim »

A curious knife indeed, Hiron. Certainty follows the pattern of a British army knife, except for the makers mark and unusual handle scales. I looked up Empire knife company, an American manufacturer that opened in the mid-19th century and went bust in 1930, in the midst of the Great Depression. I don't think this is one of their knives, principally because of the can opener. That style of can opener, with a cap lifter hook at the base, first appeared on British Army knives in '44 or '45. Also, the flathead screwdriver bit is fairly particular to British army knives starting in 1939. The handle scales look like hand checkered horn, which where common on WW2 period Indian knives. My speculation is that this is an Indian Army knife from '45 or post WW2, probably pre-Indian independence, considering the manufacturer was called "Empire". Or it could be a commercial knife just based on the military pattern.
Hiron
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Hiron »

I was leaning toward late 40s , 50s but having no bolsters sort of threw me.
India makes perfect sense. It does bear all the hallmarks of an Indian clone now I think about it.
Great information Nephilim, than you.
nif6969
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by nif6969 »

Yes indeed its a indian army jack knife you can tell by the crude hand cut scales.
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

I agree, Indian produced version of the 1938-1945 issue clasp knife. It could very well be war-time production. I don't think any of the Indian knives in my collection are dated. Nice lanyard with it. I'd value the lanyard equal to the knife.
Nephilim
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Nephilim »

Got a somewhat unusual WW1 pattern British Army Knife and I thought I'd share it here.
Tang stamp reads Walker and Hall.
Tang stamp reads Walker and Hall.
I think this is a wartime production knife, for a few reasons. This doesn't have any inspection stamps, date, or WD marks, just the maker's mark on the tang. Walker and Hall was a Sheffield based firm specializing electroplating and silversmithing. They made a lot of flatware and a few watch fob knives, but I don't know of any other jackknives that they manufactured. My speculation was that they only made these Army knives under a wartime contract. Also, the scales are made of fiber (I think. It hasn't shrunk much, but its chipped in a couple places. It could be vulcanized rubber. I'm not sure what that material looks like after 100 or so years.), a substitute standard material. The 1913 pattern knives made during peacetime typically had checkered horn scales. Also, it doesn't appear to have ever had a bail, strangely. Flook's book has an example of a Walker and Hall knife much like this one, but with the bail. Are these undated 1913 pattern knives fairly common?
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

I think your knife might be a post war civilian product, mostly because of the lack of he bail. It is certainly a 6353/1905 pattern, but the military specification clearly included a bail. The regulation method of carrying the knife was a lanyard attached to the bail on one end, the other end around the left shoulder and the knife in the left breast pocket of the tunic. Many cutlers were left with completed knives or pieces of knives when the war-time contract were cancelled. These were assembled and sold on the civilian market. The scales could be either fiber or pressed leather. Pressed and checkered leather was the grip specified for cavalry sabers from the P-1853 until the P-1908 so plenty of precedent for its use. I have a fair number of 6353/1905s and only the Canadian ones are routinely marked with a property mark. Without a careful search, I don't think any of my British ones are /|\ marked. Some do have a soldier's service number stamped on the marlin spike.
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Miller Bro's
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Miller Bro's »

I think I have one by the same maker somewhere. I agree the handles are fiber.
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timbee
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by timbee »

Hoping someone can help me with this one as a newbie to collecting this type of knife. I picked a knife up the other day because it looked similar but obviously different to the other British army clasp knives I have. The most obvious immediate difference is that the scales are flat not rounded in profile. The markings on marlin spike, blade and can opener also don’t follow the pattern that I’ve seen on the others. The pictures aren’t great but the marlin spike is stamped on one side with the number 16. The underside of the spike is stamped with what looks like war department broad arrow followed by the number 38. The preceding letters/markings are not clear. One side of the blade ricasso is stamped with a clear “C” with a number 4 beneath and I could convince myself it is actually “C. M” with 42 beneath but I couldn’t be certain. One side of the can opener ricasso is stamped 1942. The overall impression is that the fit and finish is more “agricultural” than the others I have including the scale chequering which is not regular. Any clues as to origin, maker etc?
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

The flat, horn, hand-checkered scales are the usual tell of an Indian produced knife. Knives were made to the British pattern for the Indian army and are not uncommon. The cruder workmanship and the scales all point to yours being an Indian knife. A good and proper addition to any collection of war-time British knives.
timbee
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by timbee »

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

Posted a picture of this knife before but didn't really supply any detail shots of it and as a result got no responses. Here are some detail shots.
The knife is an 8 bladed(4 back springs)metal handled model with what appears to be random pantograph engraving on the handles.Although it does have what appear to be back springs there is no perceptible action with the tangs of the blades.They seem to be held in place mostly by friction.
All four of the blades have what appear to be a broad arrow mark along with some repetitive ciphers accompanying them.The ciphers appear to be different for each blade.The four tools are a hand wound corkscrew;a long button hook;a straight slot screwdriver(?)and a long straight blade curved at the very end that is sharpened for approximately 3/8ths of an inch.
One of the more unusual features is where the spine of each blade meets the back spring:each one is cut on a different angle and the fit is very precise considering the overall crude appearance of the knife itself.
Someone suggested it might be of Indian origin and possibly made in India for military issue when it was a British colony. I don't recall what I paid for it(likely not a lot)and I bought it only because it was so unusual.
If anyone has any information as regards to who made it or what the ciphers translate to I would greatly appreciate it.
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Granted some of the marks look a bit like earlier versions of broad arrows the context isn't any form of markings for military gear I recognize from the 1800 or 1900s. to the best of my knowledge neither the British nor Indian army issued any multi-tool, SAK type knives. The most blades I know of are the blade, tin opener and marlin spike on the 6353/1905 knives. The type of lettering on the stamps does look similar to marks I've seen on some Indian stuff. I think probably made for the private purchase market, maybe aimed at sportsmen or officers stationed in India.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

cottage hill bill wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:11 pm Granted some of the marks look a bit like earlier versions of broad arrows the context isn't any form of markings for military gear I recognize from the 1800 or 1900s. to the best of my knowledge neither the British nor Indian army issued any multi-tool, SAK type knives. The most blades I know of are the blade, tin opener and marlin spike on the 6353/1905 knives. The type of lettering on the stamps does look similar to marks I've seen on some Indian stuff. I think probably made for the private purchase market, maybe aimed at sportsmen or officers stationed in India.
Thanks for the reply my friend;I didn't think it looked like anything that was issued either.More of a curiosity than anything else.
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Checkered past
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Checkered past »

Hi all. Need a little help. Looking to buy the bottom 2 knives pictured. Is the third one a WWI Navy knife? I noticed it has no can opener. Looks to be horn? I don't have it in hand yet. Let me know what you think. Maker is A. IBBETT.
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Need better pictures to make an exact determination on all of them, but from what I see you have, top to bottom,
Two Canadian army issue knives. Probably WWII or post war depending on the stampings on the ricasso.
Third from the top is pre 1905 commonly called a Boer War period knife. Often found with a soldier's service number burned into the horn scales.
The bottom is a Pattern 6353/1905 standard issue from around 1905 until 1938 when it was replaced by the smaller clasp knife.

All four are army issue, none are navy. The marlin spike was originally on knives issued to the cavalry with instructions to blunt the point of the spike for use as a hoof pick. Soon the knives became standard issue to cavalry and infantry. Remember that even into the 1950s most cargo was tied down with rope. Ratchet straps and the other load securing methods just weren't around. If you have ever tried to untie a knot in a rope that has been wet, muddy and under a strain you'll appreciate how useful a readily available marlin spike is. I still keep one close by when camping.

Depending on price and condition, all are desirable pieces for a British militaria collector.
Morayhunter
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Morayhunter »

Noticed a knife posted by zorrothegreyblade , I’ve two ,the maker is Warriss of Sheffield it’s a prototype , the other one I have has a different patent no .they both need restoration which I may start tomorrow.
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Alexander2010
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Alexander2010 »

Just picked this up. Hoping I can get some more information on it. The only marking I can find on the entire unit is on the base of the blade. Looks to be eyewitness Sheffield. No marking on spike, or anywhere else. No tin opener. Any information would be appreciated. Possible dates, gov issue/civilian , repro….

Thanks
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