I was asked to post some links in a sticky thread for folks to reference.
These are some good links to research military related knives, both American & European.
Thanks for the links Gringo, great information in them!
-Dale
BTW, has anyone here tried to grip one of these German daggers?
They may look cool but they are impossible to get a comfortable grip on them.
The points that stick down on the pommel are quite uncomfortable where they dig into the fleshy part of the hand!
I guess they were made to look good, not to really use!
Orvet, the various WWII German daggers (SA, SS, etc) were designed after the earlier Swiss "Holbein dagger," which in turn descended from the baselard. In Swiss history, they were usually paired with a katzbalger (or occasionally a kriegmesser, or both). Right about now a few folks are wondering how the design got to Germany, and why it matters. . . .
Way back about 1485-1490, Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor, king of many places including Germany, Archduke of Austria, etc, etc, started the landsknechte. This was originally a mercenary regiment consisting largely of German pikemen. Emperor Maximilian hired a German (well, we'd call him a German now, then he was a Swabian) named Georg von Frundsberg to organize the landsknechte; he, in turned, hired Swiss mercenaries (mostly officers) to train the landsknechte. This is where the Holbein dagger (and katzbalger and kriegmesser) appeared in German military history.
The landsknechte were early adopters of firearms to supplement and support their pike men, something many other armies and mercenary regiments were slower to do. Particularly in later years, the landsknechte were also almost what we'd today consider to be a "mixed multinational force."
The National Socialist party co-opted a lot of earlier Germanic history and folklore to try to support the legitimacy of the Third Reich. Katzbalgers and kreigmessers were inconveniently large, but that iconic dagger was much easier for people to carry and display, and at least subconsciously signal that the bearer was a soldier. This was done in other areas as well: if you look at the silhouette of some of the uniform designs (not just military--everyone and their dog had a uniform in Nazi Germany, and many groups such as the postal service even had special rifles and bayonets!), you can see similarities to "Almain rivet" (a type of armor worn by the landsknechte at one point). The mixed-nationality aspect of the landsknechte was mentioned a couple times in defense of the decision to add troops of other nationalities to the Heer and Waffen-SS.
During WWII, the Holbein-pattern dagger was never really intended to be a combat weapon; it was a badge of office or membership. It did get used in combat at times: the fighting near the end in Stalingrad comes to mind, as well as a couple of instances during pseudo-surrenders near the end of the war. By all accounts it was an effective weapon.
A friend of mine was a Kripo--Kriminalpolizei (police detective)--during and after the war. He's mentioned investigating a couple of murders where one of these daggers was used. His thoughts are that the grip lock's the user's hand in place, so it didn't slip over the guard in stabbing, or slip from the hand when the user attempted to withdraw the knife from victim. The grip shape forced the user to rely on power in the stroke, rather than finesse. As a result, what he saw in murder victims was multiple deep stab wounds, and tremendous loss of blood.
While the daggers didn't get much actual use, and were largely symbolic, when put to their original use they seem to have been just as effective as the original Holbein daggers.
The Kriminalpolizei was mainly concerned with serious crimes such as rape, murder and arson. A main area of the group's focus was also on "blackout burglary," considered a serious problem during bombing raids when criminals would raid abandoned homes, shops and factories for any available valuables. The Kripo was also one of the sources of manpower used to fill the ranks of the Einsatzgruppen and several senior Kripo commanders, Artur Nebe among them, were assigned as Einsatzgruppen commanders.
Kripo researchers measure a Sinti boy's head in anthropological studies of criminals, Stuttgart in 1938As part of the Nazi doctrines on crime and race, the Rassenhygienische und Bevolkerungsbiologische Forschungsstelle () headed by Nazi psychiatrist Dr. Robert Ritter, was attached to the Kriminalpolizei. Its role was to create racial profiles of non-aryans, in particular, Roma. Both the Gestapo and the Kripo deferred their policies and guidelines to the Criminal Biological department on how to deal with Gypsies.[6] The Kripo aided in the round ups of Roma and their deportations to concentration camps and extermination camps.
as
Aside from operating under the same name, I'm not sure what the actions of a bunch of war criminals have to do with the observations of a Karlsruhe-area police detective regarding the use of military daggers during the years 1939-1952, or the history of a regional military dagger variant.
Oh wait, I see: nothing.
I'm done with trolls, and I'm done with this thread.
Quality should not be an accident. So what is the explanation for some of the knives we've seen in the past few years? (from A Knifebuyer's Manifesto)
This site is dedicated to the manufacturers and the men and woman of the Australian Army, Navy and Air Force and the forces of the allied nations who carried and used Australian made knives in the defence of our freedoms.
Regards Dutchy
Collector
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
Plato (427-347 BC)
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."
Napoleon Bonaparte
We don't often get links with Australian knife info, I am glad to have it!
I have always wondered, do you have factories in Australia that make pocket knives, or are most imported?
We don't often get links with Australian knife info, I am glad to have it!
I have always wondered, do you have factories in Australia that make pocket knives, or are most imported?
Thanks again!
Hi Dale
Sadly, there is no Cutlery Industry in Australia.
The only evidence I have found for pocketknife manufacture in Australia was the WW2 and post war production from a limited number of engineering firms who tooled up to make knives for the war effort. The most prolific and the most long lasting was Whittingslowe Engineering in Adelaide. They did not survive the post war era and closed their doors in the 1950's. As you see by their post war newspaper advertisement they made a range of knives.
Most of the pocket knives sold in Australia are imported. Unfortunately, due to the unreasonable interpretation of what is a Flick Knife in Australia, Australian Customs no longer permit the import of any One Handed Opening knives.
All of the Clasp Knives supplied to the Australian Military and all of the Multi Tools are imported. Sadly, most now come from China. One poor example is the Schrade (Not so tough) multitool which is a piece of crap. Most get thrown away and replaced with a Leatherman!!
There are some very good Custom Knife makers in Australia who from time to time make small batches of high quality folding knives. These are highly sought after by collectors and users alike and sell very quickly. Some of these makers are members of the ABF site and show their creations there.
Regards
Dutchy
Collector
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
Plato (427-347 BC)
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."
Napoleon Bonaparte
We don't often get links with Australian knife info, I am glad to have it!
I have always wondered, do you have factories in Australia that make pocket knives, or are most imported?
Thanks again!
Hi Dale
Sadly, there is no Cutlery Industry in Australia.
The only evidence I have found for pocketknife manufacture in Australia was the WW2 and post war production from a limited number of engineering firms who tooled up to make knives for the war effort. The most prolific and the most long lasting was Whittingslowe Engineering in Adelaide. They did not survive the post war era and closed their doors in the 1950's. As you see by their post war newspaper advertisement they made a range of knives.
Dutchy
I know this is an old post but I just read through it tonight and felt I had to comment on it.
Here is a pic of a knife I acquired several years ago from a flea market. Definitely military and definitely Australian made.
knife7knut
I have only seen one knife like yours. One of the shearers showed it to me and wanted to find information.
It was the first I knew of pocket knives being built in Australia.
I looked it up in Dutchy site. http://www.australianmilitaryknives.com/
Grant
Politicians should be like a good pocket knife ." Sharp and useful "
Not a link, but an interesting article from a
February 1945, New York newspaper.
Click on the picture to ENLARGE.
Attachments
Kid: "Wish we had time to bury them fellas."
Josey Wales: "To hell with them fellas. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms."
Clint Eastwood-The Outlaw Josey Wales
RevolverP320 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:48 pm
Thanks.....
You're welcome and thank you.
1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:47 pm
Cool.....
You're welcome and thank you John.
Kid: "Wish we had time to bury them fellas."
Josey Wales: "To hell with them fellas. Buzzards got to eat, same as worms."
Clint Eastwood-The Outlaw Josey Wales
Here is a Pic of my WW2 Russian Vodka Flask. Typically I put Tequila in it, not Vodka. You can see the years, A Mig and Hammer & Sickle. Thought you guys may enjoy looking at it. It`s colorful. Mike