Camillus WWII knife

[Colonel26]

Dad sent this home with me tonight. From what I can tell its the same as the WWII era Kabar. The leather is a bit dry, but the blade is still full and most of the blueing is still there. Anything else y'all could tell me would be greatly appreciated!

[jerryd6818]

Cuz, I can tell you that Camillus made more MK-IIs during WWiI than did Ka-Bar, PAL or Robeson.

That said, your knife appears to be a more recent iteration. More in focus and clearer pictures of all marks would help tremendously.

[Colonel26]

Here are some better ones. I must confess military knives are something I know next to nothing about. I know this law like the mk II knives, but that's it.

Any light you could shed on this I'd appreciate.

[jerryd6818]

All I know is what I've been told. The one in the picture I posted, I picked up back in the late '70s and have been told that Camillus dropped the N.Y. from the tang stamp in about 1974. Anything else and I would just be making it up.

Anything else, take what you will from this PDF file I got someplace. -- http://home.comcast.net/~jerryd6818/Not ... KA-BAR.pdf
Camillus is down near the bottom of the document. As you will notice, your knife is not WWII.

[Colonel26]

Ahhh, thank you sir! Those notes were very good. I did some further digging here

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... ing-knife/

Looks like mine is from the 1962-1974 era if these guys are right.

[jerryd6818]

Thanks for digging that out Cuz. I've saved that info in case I can remember I have it the next time I need it (and where I put it).

[Colonel26]

Under all the grit and grime, mine is the ox blood color. So it's closer to the '62 date.

If only it could talk!

[jerryd6818]

If only it could talk!

It would say, "I'm old and tired. Leave me alone."

Do some reading before you put anything on that handle of the sheath. I understand there are some products believed to be good for leather which are not.

[Colonel26]

I agree. Some of the leather products are quite horrible.

In particular I'm not real fond of Neetsfoot oil. I think it softens the leather too much, makes it break down more.

For a first treatment I use some WD-40. The naphtha helps clean off the grime and the oil hydrates it done. I'll probably go back with some very light applications of ballistol
Balistol. Then wax. That has worked well for me in the past.

If Y'all have any other suggestions I'm all ears. The last thing I want to do is damage the old warhorse.

[gew8805]

Not to argue with Colonel26, far from it. As a longstanding member (which I am relatively new and primarily a "lurker") his advice should never be discounted. However, as a longtime leather worker and preservationist, let me offer some advice: Never use any leather dressing that contains petroleum products, this includes many modern leather dressings, some touted to be "best" for leather preservation. They are not, especially long term preservation of collectable leather goods. I must say that WD40 is not a leather dressing and it is primarily a petroleum based product. My recommendation for a dressing for the leather grip is a very light coat of pure neatsfoot oil. But whatever you use, apply it lightly, too much, even of a good product, is as bad or worse than doing nothing.

Also, unless you intend to use it regularly, keep it out of longtime exposure to direct sunlight and in an area where the humidity is around 50% to 60%, if you are comfortable it will be too. Enjoy your knife.

[jerryd6818]

Let me preface this by saying, "This is not an argument". I have no training or experience in the preservation of leather.

That being said, may I present this for your opinion gew8805? I defer to your knowledge and experience.

I've known about Neatsfoot Oil most all my life but never knew anything about it, so I went to Wikipedia. Whatever your opinion, I find it very useful. I found the Neatsfoot Oil entry very interesting because until today, I had no idea where the product comes from nor how it's made.

"Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the shin bones and feet (but not the hooves) of cattle. "Neat" in the oil's name comes from an old English word for cattle. Neatsfoot oil is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative agent for leather. In the 18th century, it was also used medicinally as a topical application for dry scaly skin conditions.

"Prime neatsfoot oil" or "neatsfoot oil compound" are terms used for a blend of pure neatsfoot oil and non-animal oils, generally mineral or other petroleum-based oils."

I'm going to cherry pick this paragraph because it seemed relevant to the discussion:
"If used on important historical objects, neatsfoot oil (like other leather dressings) can oxidize with time and contribute to embrittling. It also may leave an oily residue that can attract dust. On newer leather, it may cause darkening (even after a single application), thus may not be a desirable product to use when the maintenance of a lighter shade is desired. Neatsfoot oil is more useful for routine use on working equipment."

I would also like to know your opinion on mink oil and saddlesoap.

[Colonel26]

Cuz, you beat me to it.

gew8805, I know I speak for Jerry too when I say we don't argue about this kind of stuff, so feel free to fire away! Shucks, I'm just a young pup (38) I'm always a learning.

But I will say this, I'm not a huge fan of Neetsfoot oil. I'm a life long horse guy. I've seen far too many stirrup leathers that were kept oily with neetsfoot oil snap from dry rot. The more expensive pure stuff, you are correct, doesn't contain petroleum. But the cheap stuff normally does. Neetsfootoil, like most animal based oils, will oxidize over time, can become rancid, can break down non synthetic stitching, and can cause less than perfect leather to further deteriorate. For that reason I'm not a fan of it in MOST applications. It also will make the leather darken.

I used WD-40 because of the high levels of naptha mixed with a bit of oil. The leather handle and the sheath both had been oiled in the past, were darkened, and had some damage. Even though they'd been oiled they were still cracking. So I used the WD-40 to clean the leather primarily, a deep cleaning. It worked too because it washed out the old oil and now the leather is back to the original ox blood color, much like using acetone to soak out oil from a gun stock.

Once it's really good and dry I'll go back with a glycerin based saddle soap. The glycerin is good for the leather and it's a pretty gentle cleaner/conditioner. For a longer term protection I'll probably use something like Picards or a beeswax based product. Now is that perfect? Probably not! But it's worked for me in the past. But I sure would live to hear any other tips you have, I've always admired guys who were good a leather work. Wish I could do it!

Cuz, most mink oil from what I understand has a pereroleum base.

[gew8805]

Jerry and Colonel, thanks for your thoughts and I am happy to see that there will be no arguments, nothing would be less productive. You have both asked for me to give my further thoughts (or "opinions" based on experience so I will try to do that in two posts, quoting from yours:

.......

I've known about Neatsfoot Oil most all my life but never knew anything about it, so I went to Wikipedia. Whatever your opinion, I find it very useful. I found the Neatsfoot Oil entry very interesting because until today, I had no idea where the product comes from nor how it's made.

"Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the shin bones and feet (but not the hooves) of cattle. "Neat" in the oil's name comes from an old English word for cattle. Neatsfoot oil is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative agent for leather. In the 18th century, it was also used medicinally as a topical application for dry scaly skin conditions.

"Prime neatsfoot oil" or "neatsfoot oil compound" are terms used for a blend of pure neatsfoot oil and non-animal oils, generally mineral or other petroleum-based oils."

I'm going to cherry pick this paragraph because it seemed relevant to the discussion:
"If used on important historical objects, neatsfoot oil (like other leather dressings) can oxidize with time and contribute to embrittling. It also may leave an oily residue that can attract dust. On newer leather, it may cause darkening (even after a single application), thus may not be a desirable product to use when the maintenance of a lighter shade is desired. Neatsfoot oil is more useful for routine use on working equipment."

I would also like to know your opinion on mink oil and saddlesoap.

I will try to make this as short as I can, nothing is worse than a know-it-all spouting pages of information.
Neatsfoot oil has been in use successfully for hundreds of years, and as I said in my first post, use only a high grade of "pure" neatsfoot oil, the inexpensive additives in neatsfoot oil compound or prime neatsfoot oil are added to a lower grade of pure neatsfoot oil and that is the cause of the problems some always note with neatsfoot oil. These additives are petroleum derivatives are are definitely not good for leather, especially leather that has dried out in age. Petroleum products will dry leather further by evaporation carrying with it beneficial oils, those that need to be in the leather to slow down it's deterioration. Remember, leather is a natural product and, like all natural products, it will begin to decay once the natural, renewing process it had in life has ended. Example: Another natural product that will deteriorate quickly if not protected is wood. If wood is left outside (say as a child's swing set) and is not protected with paint or a weather and sun resistant oil finish, it will begin to rapidly deteriorate, in other words rot, we've all seen that. Unfinished lumber can be used in a protected, dry environment and have a life span vastly longer than if it is exposed to the elements, the same with leather.

So let me add this to my post above; the best thing you can do with leather is.... nothing. Do not add any oils, do not expose it to ultraviolet light (sunlight) and keep it at a comfortable (for you) humidity of 50% to 60%. In other words, don't use it. That way, your new leather objects will remain as new for a long time, not forever but for for quite a long time and your used or antique leather items can enjoy a longer life as well.

But let's be realistic, the above is not practical. New items are meant to be used, as a matter of fact they should be used, why were they created if not to serve a purpose. If you have a knife with a leather grip (my personal favorite by the way) then use it. But keep in mind that the sweat and oils in your hand will begin to break down the leather as it is used. So will heat and cold, sunlight and even pollutants in the air. That's just the world we live in. The same things will affect antique or collectable leather items even more. An example of bad affects from use is the topic of this discussion, no one would try to go back in time to tell the person issued this knife when it was new to protect it and keep it fresh and clean. It was issued for a purpose and I am sure it served it's purpose well; it was handled and possibly exposed to weather conditions that it simply could not be expected to be able to deal with without some deterioration. And, it was like hundreds of thousands of other knives just like it or similar to it. It probably stayed soaking wet for days, maybe weeks at a time, it may have gotten soaked in salt water more than once, and perhaps coated with heavy automotive grease from who knows what. Add to that, maybe months of time in boiling hot sun and near 100% humidity or extremely dry desert conditions. Then, when the soldier, sailor, airman or Marine was no longer in need of it, he turned it back to the quartermaster to be eventually surplussed or the user took it home from service with him in his duffle bag or sea bag, then he may have carried it as a hunting knife for years after his service. Or even kept it in his tool box for use on the job, we don't know. But it has had a hard life and remained around long enough to be found by a collector that respects it for what it is - lucky knife.

I am going to add a link here that will show you what the NPS recommends for the preservation of antique leather and maybe that will offer some thoughts that you can use, it is from their Museum Management Program:

http://www.nps.gov/museum/publications/ ... eservation

There is a lot of good information there on many topics. Pertinent to our subject here is the following on the above page, Section 9. Leather and Skin Objects

Good information from long experienced preservationists, hope you find it helpful and I hope that I have not been too long winded (even though I know I have been. )

Oh, I almost forgot. What do I think of mink oil and saddle soap? Mink oil is full of petroleum products so I won't use it. Saddle soap if used carefully is good, it is the only cleaner that I will use but it really is not a cleaner, it is the water used with it that cleans by rinsing away surface dirt, the ingredients in it are actually for leather preservation and they are carried into the leather by the water.

[gew8805]

Colonel, I find myself short on time and will have to reply to your post later. Looking forward to it.

[Colonel26]

Gew, good information. I look forward to learning from you sir! I'm no expert at all. But I'm willing to learn!

[gew8805]

Colonel and Jerry, I hope you and everyone else here had a wonderful Christmas and are enjoying the beginning or a wonderful New Year full of prosperity and new acquisitions to the collection. I am sorry to have taken so long getting back to this thread but things have been busy. Colonel, I will try to reply to your statements made in the post below:

Cuz, you beat me to it.

gew8805, I know I speak for Jerry too when I say we don't argue about this kind of stuff, so feel free to fire away! Shucks, I'm just a young pup (38) I'm always a learning.

But I will say this, I'm not a huge fan of Neetsfoot oil. I'm a life long horse guy. I've seen far too many stirrup leathers that were kept oily with neetsfoot oil snap from dry rot. The more expensive pure stuff, you are correct, doesn't contain petroleum. But the cheap stuff normally does. Neetsfootoil, like most animal based oils, will oxidize over time, can become rancid, can break down non synthetic stitching, and can cause less than perfect leather to further deteriorate. For that reason I'm not a fan of it in MOST applications. It also will make the leather darken.

There are many that feel as you do and it is sometimes based on experience and often on hearsay evidence or information gathered reading or hearing of other (sometimes) not well informed opinions. It is good to know that your opinion is based on years of personal experience, that adds weight to what you say. Let me express my opinion in reply; keeping leather "oily" with anything is a bad thing, it indicates over-application. Often, many use too much neatsfoot oil. I am not saying that you do this, I'm sure you do not, but it is a common problem. Many say "If a little is good, more is better" and that is the problem. Also, stirrup leathers take a major beating and only the best grade and proper weight should be used. It is also important for strength that they be made the right way with the hair (smooth) side on the inside rather than facing out to take the rider's weight on the stirrup. It is especially important that the right amount of oil be used, since the skin (rough) side faces out it is easy to apply too much neatsfoot oil - it soaks in quickly leaving the impression that more is needed. Nothing can be further from the truth. Too much oil will encourage the leather to stretch and too much oil attracts dirt. Dirt is an abrasive and will quickly abrade the leather and stitching. Clean frequently, yes. Use a good quality saddle soap but only oil when the leather shows sign of needing it and apply lightly to both sides (when possible) by hand.

As far as neatsfoot oil rotting non-synthetic threads? It is an old wives' tale. Proper high quality, natural linen thread (all I have ever used) will not be damaged by neatsfoot oil, it has been proven over and over again. It is dirt that damages stitching, natural or otherwise. When cleaning tack, pay close attention to areas that are sewn, removing all dirt so it will not abrade the stitching and, as with the rest of the leather, apply only as much oil as needed to keep the leather from drying out and cracking. Remember, neatsfoot oil is used in the tanning of leather, other natural animal (and fish) oils are used as well, they can grow rancid, it's true, but using too much will only add to the possibility of this happening and nothing is better for leather than pure, natural neatsfoot oil. Keep chemical or petroleum products away from leather. Properly maintained, leather will far outlast us.

I used WD-40 because of the high levels of naptha mixed with a bit of oil. The leather handle and the sheath both had been oiled in the past, were darkened, and had some damage. Even though they'd been oiled they were still cracking. So I used the WD-40 to clean the leather primarily, a deep cleaning. It worked too because it washed out the old oil and now the leather is back to the original ox blood color, much like using acetone to soak out oil from a gun stock.

Naptha and petroleum products in WD40 have done their damage to the knife's grip. I am sorry, but that is a fact, they have removed all oils of all kinds from the leather. The oxblood color is not the original color of the knife's grip, when new it was a dark yellowish or reddish brown so maybe it is just a question of terminology. The color you have now is largely influenced by the addition of petroleum oils to the grip. What it has done is remove the good, natural fatty oils from the leather and further cracking and deterioration will happen relatively rapidly - non-petroleum oil is essential to the preservation of leather, just as it is to the condition of living skin.

We won't talk about the use of acetone on wood gunstocks or any other wood products, I avoid acetone because of the damage it does, it is a great solvent for the chemical industry, but not on wood. As with leather, oil is required for wood and I use linseed oil on gunstocks after heating with sunlight on hot summer days. Some will disagree but that is a topic for another forum.

Once it's really good and dry I'll go back with a glycerin based saddle soap. The glycerin is good for the leather and it's a pretty gentle cleaner/conditioner. For a longer term protection I'll probably use something like Picards or a beeswax based product. Now is that perfect? Probably not! But it's worked for me in the past. But I sure would live to hear any other tips you have, I've always admired guys who were good a leather work. Wish I could do it!

Saddle soap is fine as long as it is composed of natural soap, I am not aware of any advantages to glycerine soaps but as far as I know, it does no serious harm and some say it is good for it so.....

Pecards though? I feel that it is highly over rated and can do no good whatsoever for antique leather though it may be okay for work boots, baseball gloves and belts - user grade items that will be used until worn out and thrown away. As far as my experience with it? It does not in any way restore leather's oils and if the leather is stiff from drying out, it leaves it that way. But it can leave a nice shiny surface behind when used the way suggested.

Beeswax based preservation concoctions are fine, the beeswax is good and as long as it is not cut with petroleum products in can be beneficial, as long as it doesn't seal the leather keeping it from absorbing moisture and limit the further application of oils when needed.

Cuz, most mink oil from what I understand has a pereroleum base.

Right you are.

[Colonel26]

I didn't have any Picards or Obenhauf's on hand, so ised what I had, Prooofide like I use in my Brooks bicycle saddle. And yes, the color thing is a matter of terminology I'm thinking. I'm just using the term used on the military collector forum.

The leather after two applications of the proofide is supple again, of course the previous damage is what it is, but it's a lot better than it was. It really soaked the Prooofide up too, but the handle that I thought was toast is MUCH improved.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on much of this: gunstocks, leather treatment, etc... But I appreciate the advice. It made me go back and research which is always a good thing.

[gew8805]

There you go, learning through research is always a good thing.

Now I have a research question; what is "Prooofide"? That is a new one on me......

[jerryd6818]

"Prooofide" is another way of spelling Proofide. Come on Cuz. You asked for that one. It's also a conditioner for high end bicycle seats (saddles) made by an English company -- Brooks. (and others I suppose or other leather products)

Edit: See? Google really is your friend.

[Colonel26]

Thanks Cuz. When it comes to spelling this ipad and I don't always get along.

Proofide is good stuff. I use it on my brooks.

[jerryd6818]

Proofide is good stuff. I use it on my brooks.

Do you have to use it the rest of your life or do they think they'll find a cure someday?

[Colonel26]

Rofl! As a former cycling addict I can tell you it can be like a sickness. I need to relapse back into cycling though. A little more Proofide would cure this swelling around my gut!

[gew8805]

Now that is interesting, I've never seen or used it before. The ingredients are listed as - "Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil". If like the US method of marking ingredients in order by quantity, this is good stuff. As a matter of fact, if you remove the paraffin wax and substitute a larger amount of beeswax (they could, the paraffin is used to reduce cost) then this would be an excellent, safe for the leather product. The paraffin is, of course, petroleum but it along with the beeswax is a stiffening agent allowing it to be better applied allowing a shine to be put on the leather and may not be all that much of a problem - it will mostly sit on the surface and most of the harmful part of the petroleum will evaporate. (Or rub off on your seat. )

I do like the fact that it contains more beneficial oils. Tallow and cod oil have been long used on leather, both in preservation and rejuvenation, and they preserve the flexibility of the leather giving it longer effective life just like neatsfoot oil. Also, cod oil has long been used in tanning leather as well. The vegetable oil and the citronella oil do this as well. So, good stuff, you have my permission to use it. Kidding of course, but on the surface it does seem to be okay and I will have to give it a try on modern, user grade items before using it on anything old or to be preserved. Amazon.com has a 25 gram can at a reasonable price. It still won't replace tried and true neatsfoot oil, but it may well be beneficial. As with all things, use it only when needed and use only enough to benefit the item, no more.