British and Commonwealth Military Knives

[Nephilim]

Regrettably, this is not from my personal collection, but I saw one of these advertised as a British military knife and I thought I'd ask if anyone here knows more.

Joseph Rodgers and Sons, early 20th century knife with wire cutters. Probably the earliest knife with a pseudo-multitool pattern I've seen.

[cottage hill bill]

I've just spent about a half hour going through Flook's British and Commonwealth Military Knives and couldn't find it. Best guess is it is a private purchase item. It is possible it is marked Army & Navy CSL which was an organization that provided everything from uniforms and weapons to furniture and household items for British officers. Until IIRC early WWII British officers had to provide all of their own equipment out of their own pocket. From thr horse the cavalry officer rode to uniform to sidearms to cot and cooking gear it was all on his dime. the Army & Navy cooperative was like a Sears and Roebuck for the serving officer. It's not unusual for a seller to think the the Army & Navy stamp means it is issue gear. That's not the case. Any piece of British issued equipment will be stamped with a broad arrow. All that being said it is a neat knife and I'd love to have one in my collection.

[Nephilim]

Thanks for looking that up. Someday, maybe I'll get lucky and find one for a good price (or a copy of Flook's book for a good price, for that matter).

[cottage hill bill]

I had some better info on those Rodgers multi-tool knives but can't seem to find it. Another of the joys of getting older. IIRC, and don't take this to the bank, they were early 1900s, I think pre WWI and possibly a bit earlier, maybe even Boer War era. I've always wanted one but they seem to go for stupid money.

[knife7knut]

I thought these were listed as dynamite knives.The crimping tool was used for working with dynamite caps. Seems to me there were some that Bill Adams bought in England many years ago that were unmarked and supposedly used by the OSS. I thought I knew where the article was;I'll have to research it a bit
EDIT: Here is a pic I got off the 'net.This knife has additional saw blades and is referred to as an OSS Escape knife.Some of these were marked while others were "sterile"

[MT-Vessel]

How’re ya now?
Well, I was out scouring junk shops the other day... and found this military clasp knife. $5 got it out the door and a scrub with WD40 revealed the tang stamp. CASE XX over METAL STAMPINGS over LTD. This thread’s experts taught me it is a true WW2 product. Nice.
The Broad Arrow stamp is not accompanied by a letter or symbol. Am I correct in assuming it is legit and signifies Britain?
Thanks in advance for any information about these markings.
JV
MT-Vessel

[1967redrider]

Ray, that looks like the great-grandfather of today's Leatherman.

[cody6268]

How’re ya now?
Well, I was out scouring junk shops the other day... and found this military clasp knife. $5 got it out the door and a scrub with WD40 revealed the tang stamp. CASE XX over METAL STAMPINGS over LTD. This thread’s experts taught me it is a true WW2 product. Nice.
The Broad Arrow stamp is not accompanied by a letter or symbol. Am I correct in assuming it is legit and signifies Britain?
Thanks in advance for any information about these markings.
JV
MT-Vessel

I have a pair of pliers that has 1940 and "C Broad Arrow" but is overstamped with 1952 and just the broad arrow down the middle of the number. So, I wonder if Canada used both?

[cottage hill bill]

Your knife is a Case M346. Collectors recognize four variants of this knife. The first were made in the U.S. for the U.S. Navy and are marked Case XX on the blade. Made from 1940-1942 The second was made in the U.S. for Canada and marked Case XX Metal Stampings LTD. (your knife) made from 1942-1945. Third variation made by a Case subsidiary in Nova Scotia and marked M.S. Ltd. 1948-1949. From 1950 on made in U.S. by Case and marked Case XX Stainless. sold to Canadian government.

Hope this helps.

[Checkered past]

Good day Forum

I would like to tap into the collective knowledge of the Forum. I just received another George Wostenholm IXL 6353/1905 and while I was cleaning I noticed there was a number stamped on the inner scale, right behind the can opener.

I have 2 of them now that have an "L" stamped, and the one I just received has a "16". I assume inspection marks? Does anyone know for certain? Since these are not dated on the blade could it be a date code? What do we think....

[Checkered past]

Here's a couple more knives that arrived yesterday. Purchased a bit in the blind. First one the blade is marked DMF and is C broad arrow stamped. It has a sheepsfoot blade. With the sheepsfoot, steel shackle and the can opener it has I assume WWII. I can't seem to find too much info on this one.

The second is marked Endure Sheffield England on what I think is very hard rubber scales. The other side not shown has a substantial buckle in it. The blade is marked J. BEAL & SONS. I suspect early WWII production with the copper shackle. No acceptance mark that I can find. And again, not too much info I can find. It's not as long as the 6353, but longer than the WWII clasps

Let me know if you can shed anymore light on these. Figured I couldn't go too wrong for $20.

[cottage hill bill]

Second knife first. Flook lists this style under Miscellaneous World War Two knives. He sites examples by Wade & Butcher and Joeseph Allen and Sons and drawings of the pattern from Maleham and Yeoman. I have one made by McClory marked with their Scottia brand. They came with and without marlin spike. The Wade & Butcher was marked with a W/|\D stamp. The J Allen and mine are unmarked. Apparently the pressed fiber scales were the standard for this style. The scales on mine are also badly warped and bowed and the inside of the liners rusted. Whether these were issue or private purchase is unclear. They could also be post-war for the civilian market. Many of the cutlers had stock on hand when the war time contracts were cancelled at the end.

Your first knife is mentioned in Flook under Canadian knives. He cites Lawrence "Canadian Military folders of World War One" as defining the mark as OMF but states that on the example photographed for his book the mark looks more like DMF. As of the time of printing of Flook's book (1999) the origin of the mark was unknown.

I have made a bit of a study of Canadian WWI knives looking through the records for military contracts for folding knives. With the exception of some specialty hospital knives the only makers I've found are Thomas Turner who produced a knife very like yours from 1914 -1916, Wade and Butcher who had a large contract for 6353/1905 knives, Camillus and Schatt & Morgan who both made a very 6353/1905 like knife except with bone scales. The Schatt & Morgan tin opener was also different. I have not found any mention of a maker who would match up to either OMF or DMF.

Nice catch.

[Eustace]

...............................

It is not related to the topic, but I want to thank you for your participation in this forum. I really learn a lot from you!
It would be very interesting to show your collection

[cottage hill bill]

Thanks. The collection lives in a couple of drawers in a machinist's chest, not a very good display set up. I'm hoping to figure out a decent display format sometime.

These are the WWII folders. There are a couple of pretenders, the SOE style in the lower right corner is a current production one and the one center left end with the ring and brass escutcheon on the scale is an 80's Swiss army clone by Rodgers. There are a couple Belgian and Italian copies of the British WWII knife in there as well.

Here is the WWI drawer. couple of clunkers in there too. The bone scaled one lower center is a civilian knife of unknown provenance as is the metal scaled one center left end. Who knows, if it gets slow this week maybe I can get them out and take some decent pics.

[cody6268]

That's a lot better organized than most of my knives are. I've been torn between metal machinist's chest (Kennedy), wood machinist's chests (old G Gerstner, and Craftsman sold some as well), or the crappy ones Harbor Freight sells for a fraction of the other two. Metal Kennedys can often be had cheap, but the shipping usually kills any deal you can find.

[cottage hill bill]

Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.

[knife7knut]

Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.

Staying a bit off track;I usually prefer the wooden boxes to the metal ones as they seem to resist trapping moisture. Just my opinion but metal tool boxes seem to form condensate inside when exposed to a damp environment or drastic temperature change.
That said I like the Kennedy boxes as well and I still see them at yard sales occasionally for reasonable money(usually).One of my best scores was a Kennedy 7 drawer top box and roll around for $5! A little rusty but an easy cleanup.I use it to store a lot of my sign making supplies that aren't prone to moisture damage.At one time I had about a dozen Kennedys but of late have thinned the herd a bit.I have several unusual ones including a carpenter's box(over 3 ft. long)and a tiny one(model 613)I use to keep my watch repair tools in.Also a really old one that I keep small ammunition in. I may have to do a post in the General off topic forum about them.

[Hiron]

Hi all, new to the forum.
I am having trouble finding some info on a knife I came across.
I believe it was made by Empire Cutlery as this is the only marking on the knife.
I hope that some one one here may have some idea about its manufacture date or any other facts about these knives.

[Nephilim]

A curious knife indeed, Hiron. Certainty follows the pattern of a British army knife, except for the makers mark and unusual handle scales. I looked up Empire knife company, an American manufacturer that opened in the mid-19th century and went bust in 1930, in the midst of the Great Depression. I don't think this is one of their knives, principally because of the can opener. That style of can opener, with a cap lifter hook at the base, first appeared on British Army knives in '44 or '45. Also, the flathead screwdriver bit is fairly particular to British army knives starting in 1939. The handle scales look like hand checkered horn, which where common on WW2 period Indian knives. My speculation is that this is an Indian Army knife from '45 or post WW2, probably pre-Indian independence, considering the manufacturer was called "Empire". Or it could be a commercial knife just based on the military pattern.

[Hiron]

I was leaning toward late 40s , 50s but having no bolsters sort of threw me.
India makes perfect sense. It does bear all the hallmarks of an Indian clone now I think about it.
Great information Nephilim, than you.

[nif6969]

Yes indeed its a indian army jack knife you can tell by the crude hand cut scales.

[cottage hill bill]

I agree, Indian produced version of the 1938-1945 issue clasp knife. It could very well be war-time production. I don't think any of the Indian knives in my collection are dated. Nice lanyard with it. I'd value the lanyard equal to the knife.

[Nephilim]

Got a somewhat unusual WW1 pattern British Army Knife and I thought I'd share it here.

Tang stamp reads Walker and Hall.

I think this is a wartime production knife, for a few reasons. This doesn't have any inspection stamps, date, or WD marks, just the maker's mark on the tang. Walker and Hall was a Sheffield based firm specializing electroplating and silversmithing. They made a lot of flatware and a few watch fob knives, but I don't know of any other jackknives that they manufactured. My speculation was that they only made these Army knives under a wartime contract. Also, the scales are made of fiber (I think. It hasn't shrunk much, but its chipped in a couple places. It could be vulcanized rubber. I'm not sure what that material looks like after 100 or so years.), a substitute standard material. The 1913 pattern knives made during peacetime typically had checkered horn scales. Also, it doesn't appear to have ever had a bail, strangely. Flook's book has an example of a Walker and Hall knife much like this one, but with the bail. Are these undated 1913 pattern knives fairly common?

[cottage hill bill]

I think your knife might be a post war civilian product, mostly because of the lack of he bail. It is certainly a 6353/1905 pattern, but the military specification clearly included a bail. The regulation method of carrying the knife was a lanyard attached to the bail on one end, the other end around the left shoulder and the knife in the left breast pocket of the tunic. Many cutlers were left with completed knives or pieces of knives when the war-time contract were cancelled. These were assembled and sold on the civilian market. The scales could be either fiber or pressed leather. Pressed and checkered leather was the grip specified for cavalry sabers from the P-1853 until the P-1908 so plenty of precedent for its use. I have a fair number of 6353/1905s and only the Canadian ones are routinely marked with a property mark. Without a careful search, I don't think any of my British ones are /|\ marked. Some do have a soldier's service number stamped on the marlin spike.

[Miller Bro's]

I think I have one by the same maker somewhere. I agree the handles are fiber.