British and Commonwealth Military Knives

A place to discuss & share pictures of military related knives and tools. Conversation relating to objects of war and peace from all eras welcome.
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

cottage hill bill wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:15 pm Not to take this thread terribly off track, but I too have a fondness for Kennedy boxes. I was a Jaguar/MG/other things British mechanic in an earlier life when those things were sold in this country. My first box was a Kennedy roll around with a machinist's top box. I've had good luck finding Kennedy boxes at flea markets and yard sales. The wooden boxes you cited are beautiful but stupid expensive. Haunt the estate and yard sales. Often times dad or grandad has moved on to the celestial machine shop and the kids don't have a clue what to do with tools. Most people these days when confronted with anything more mechanical than a bent nail are at a total loss. I've picked up a small Kennedy machinist box still loaded with various measuring devices (telescoping gauges, calipers, micrometers) for $20 at a yard sale. Asked them if they were sure about the price they had on it. "that junk's no good to us" was the answer. Look around and be patient, you'll find something.
Staying a bit off track;I usually prefer the wooden boxes to the metal ones as they seem to resist trapping moisture. Just my opinion but metal tool boxes seem to form condensate inside when exposed to a damp environment or drastic temperature change.
That said I like the Kennedy boxes as well and I still see them at yard sales occasionally for reasonable money(usually).One of my best scores was a Kennedy 7 drawer top box and roll around for $5! A little rusty but an easy cleanup.I use it to store a lot of my sign making supplies that aren't prone to moisture damage.At one time I had about a dozen Kennedys but of late have thinned the herd a bit.I have several unusual ones including a carpenter's box(over 3 ft. long)and a tiny one(model 613)I use to keep my watch repair tools in.Also a really old one that I keep small ammunition in. I may have to do a post in the General off topic forum about them.
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Hiron
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Hiron »

Hi all, new to the forum.
I am having trouble finding some info on a knife I came across.
I believe it was made by Empire Cutlery as this is the only marking on the knife.
I hope that some one one here may have some idea about its manufacture date or any other facts about these knives.
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Nephilim
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Nephilim »

A curious knife indeed, Hiron. Certainty follows the pattern of a British army knife, except for the makers mark and unusual handle scales. I looked up Empire knife company, an American manufacturer that opened in the mid-19th century and went bust in 1930, in the midst of the Great Depression. I don't think this is one of their knives, principally because of the can opener. That style of can opener, with a cap lifter hook at the base, first appeared on British Army knives in '44 or '45. Also, the flathead screwdriver bit is fairly particular to British army knives starting in 1939. The handle scales look like hand checkered horn, which where common on WW2 period Indian knives. My speculation is that this is an Indian Army knife from '45 or post WW2, probably pre-Indian independence, considering the manufacturer was called "Empire". Or it could be a commercial knife just based on the military pattern.
Hiron
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Hiron »

I was leaning toward late 40s , 50s but having no bolsters sort of threw me.
India makes perfect sense. It does bear all the hallmarks of an Indian clone now I think about it.
Great information Nephilim, than you.
nif6969
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by nif6969 »

Yes indeed its a indian army jack knife you can tell by the crude hand cut scales.
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

I agree, Indian produced version of the 1938-1945 issue clasp knife. It could very well be war-time production. I don't think any of the Indian knives in my collection are dated. Nice lanyard with it. I'd value the lanyard equal to the knife.
Nephilim
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Nephilim »

Got a somewhat unusual WW1 pattern British Army Knife and I thought I'd share it here.
Tang stamp reads Walker and Hall.
Tang stamp reads Walker and Hall.
I think this is a wartime production knife, for a few reasons. This doesn't have any inspection stamps, date, or WD marks, just the maker's mark on the tang. Walker and Hall was a Sheffield based firm specializing electroplating and silversmithing. They made a lot of flatware and a few watch fob knives, but I don't know of any other jackknives that they manufactured. My speculation was that they only made these Army knives under a wartime contract. Also, the scales are made of fiber (I think. It hasn't shrunk much, but its chipped in a couple places. It could be vulcanized rubber. I'm not sure what that material looks like after 100 or so years.), a substitute standard material. The 1913 pattern knives made during peacetime typically had checkered horn scales. Also, it doesn't appear to have ever had a bail, strangely. Flook's book has an example of a Walker and Hall knife much like this one, but with the bail. Are these undated 1913 pattern knives fairly common?
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

I think your knife might be a post war civilian product, mostly because of the lack of he bail. It is certainly a 6353/1905 pattern, but the military specification clearly included a bail. The regulation method of carrying the knife was a lanyard attached to the bail on one end, the other end around the left shoulder and the knife in the left breast pocket of the tunic. Many cutlers were left with completed knives or pieces of knives when the war-time contract were cancelled. These were assembled and sold on the civilian market. The scales could be either fiber or pressed leather. Pressed and checkered leather was the grip specified for cavalry sabers from the P-1853 until the P-1908 so plenty of precedent for its use. I have a fair number of 6353/1905s and only the Canadian ones are routinely marked with a property mark. Without a careful search, I don't think any of my British ones are /|\ marked. Some do have a soldier's service number stamped on the marlin spike.
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Miller Bro's »

I think I have one by the same maker somewhere. I agree the handles are fiber.
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timbee
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by timbee »

Hoping someone can help me with this one as a newbie to collecting this type of knife. I picked a knife up the other day because it looked similar but obviously different to the other British army clasp knives I have. The most obvious immediate difference is that the scales are flat not rounded in profile. The markings on marlin spike, blade and can opener also don’t follow the pattern that I’ve seen on the others. The pictures aren’t great but the marlin spike is stamped on one side with the number 16. The underside of the spike is stamped with what looks like war department broad arrow followed by the number 38. The preceding letters/markings are not clear. One side of the blade ricasso is stamped with a clear “C” with a number 4 beneath and I could convince myself it is actually “C. M” with 42 beneath but I couldn’t be certain. One side of the can opener ricasso is stamped 1942. The overall impression is that the fit and finish is more “agricultural” than the others I have including the scale chequering which is not regular. Any clues as to origin, maker etc?
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

The flat, horn, hand-checkered scales are the usual tell of an Indian produced knife. Knives were made to the British pattern for the Indian army and are not uncommon. The cruder workmanship and the scales all point to yours being an Indian knife. A good and proper addition to any collection of war-time British knives.
timbee
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by timbee »

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

Posted a picture of this knife before but didn't really supply any detail shots of it and as a result got no responses. Here are some detail shots.
The knife is an 8 bladed(4 back springs)metal handled model with what appears to be random pantograph engraving on the handles.Although it does have what appear to be back springs there is no perceptible action with the tangs of the blades.They seem to be held in place mostly by friction.
All four of the blades have what appear to be a broad arrow mark along with some repetitive ciphers accompanying them.The ciphers appear to be different for each blade.The four tools are a hand wound corkscrew;a long button hook;a straight slot screwdriver(?)and a long straight blade curved at the very end that is sharpened for approximately 3/8ths of an inch.
One of the more unusual features is where the spine of each blade meets the back spring:each one is cut on a different angle and the fit is very precise considering the overall crude appearance of the knife itself.
Someone suggested it might be of Indian origin and possibly made in India for military issue when it was a British colony. I don't recall what I paid for it(likely not a lot)and I bought it only because it was so unusual.
If anyone has any information as regards to who made it or what the ciphers translate to I would greatly appreciate it.
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Granted some of the marks look a bit like earlier versions of broad arrows the context isn't any form of markings for military gear I recognize from the 1800 or 1900s. to the best of my knowledge neither the British nor Indian army issued any multi-tool, SAK type knives. The most blades I know of are the blade, tin opener and marlin spike on the 6353/1905 knives. The type of lettering on the stamps does look similar to marks I've seen on some Indian stuff. I think probably made for the private purchase market, maybe aimed at sportsmen or officers stationed in India.
knife7knut
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by knife7knut »

cottage hill bill wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:11 pm Granted some of the marks look a bit like earlier versions of broad arrows the context isn't any form of markings for military gear I recognize from the 1800 or 1900s. to the best of my knowledge neither the British nor Indian army issued any multi-tool, SAK type knives. The most blades I know of are the blade, tin opener and marlin spike on the 6353/1905 knives. The type of lettering on the stamps does look similar to marks I've seen on some Indian stuff. I think probably made for the private purchase market, maybe aimed at sportsmen or officers stationed in India.
Thanks for the reply my friend;I didn't think it looked like anything that was issued either.More of a curiosity than anything else.
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Checkered past
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Checkered past »

Hi all. Need a little help. Looking to buy the bottom 2 knives pictured. Is the third one a WWI Navy knife? I noticed it has no can opener. Looks to be horn? I don't have it in hand yet. Let me know what you think. Maker is A. IBBETT.
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Need better pictures to make an exact determination on all of them, but from what I see you have, top to bottom,
Two Canadian army issue knives. Probably WWII or post war depending on the stampings on the ricasso.
Third from the top is pre 1905 commonly called a Boer War period knife. Often found with a soldier's service number burned into the horn scales.
The bottom is a Pattern 6353/1905 standard issue from around 1905 until 1938 when it was replaced by the smaller clasp knife.

All four are army issue, none are navy. The marlin spike was originally on knives issued to the cavalry with instructions to blunt the point of the spike for use as a hoof pick. Soon the knives became standard issue to cavalry and infantry. Remember that even into the 1950s most cargo was tied down with rope. Ratchet straps and the other load securing methods just weren't around. If you have ever tried to untie a knot in a rope that has been wet, muddy and under a strain you'll appreciate how useful a readily available marlin spike is. I still keep one close by when camping.

Depending on price and condition, all are desirable pieces for a British militaria collector.
Morayhunter
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Morayhunter »

Noticed a knife posted by zorrothegreyblade , I’ve two ,the maker is Warriss of Sheffield it’s a prototype , the other one I have has a different patent no .they both need restoration which I may start tomorrow.
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Alexander2010
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Alexander2010 »

Just picked this up. Hoping I can get some more information on it. The only marking I can find on the entire unit is on the base of the blade. Looks to be eyewitness Sheffield. No marking on spike, or anywhere else. No tin opener. Any information would be appreciated. Possible dates, gov issue/civilian , repro….

Thanks
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cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Eye Witness is the mark of Taylor. Taylor made the standard issue knife which had blade, tin opener and spike and possibly the version with blade and opener only. Are there any other marks? Date or /|\? If there are no other marks my guess would be it is post war using left-over wartime parts and sold on the civilian market.
Alexander2010
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Alexander2010 »

I see no other visible marks. Thanks for the info.
Alexander2010
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Alexander2010 »

I’m unfamiliar with where the /I\ would be, but I see nothing.
cottage hill bill
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by cottage hill bill »

Normally on the ricasso of the blade. Probably opposite side from the name.
Rannard
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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Post by Rannard »

INDIAN MADE WWII JACKKNIVES, REPLACING A BOLSTER AND FLATTENING A HORN SCALE


I bought a job lot of British Army jackknives. Three were Indian made, from their markings of the 1942/43 period. The British Indian Army was so large and geographically dispersed that many small local contractors were used, rather than a large government factory. All three are noticeably different in their dimensions and it is difficult to identify their marks. India having no shortage of people, artisan manual labour was the order of the day. Machine tools were only used where essential.

Indian made jackknives were serviceable but roughly finished compared to the Sheffield made article. Their scales are horn and were hand chequered after fitting to the body of the knife, before the bale was attached. One can see where the chequering file has scored the ends of the scale rivets. Natural material and hand chequering gives these knives a pleasing and distinctive appearance, rather more attractive than the British moulded black Bexoid plastic (cellulose acetate).

One of these knives has a partially broken tin opener spring and another has such a strong springs one needs a tool to open the blades. This variability casts aspersions on the heat treatment of their spring steel. The blade and marlin spike steel, less demanding of metallurgy expertise, is of satisfactory quality.

The middle of these three knives in the photograph had a bolster missing, a reflection on the finishing, its rivet insufficiently flared for retention. I cut a piece of mild steel roughly to size, shaped the end as a bolster on a bench grinder before cutting the part off. It was then offered up to the knife for fitting and marking for drilling. A new pin was made from a steel nail of the right diameter; the nail point aided its insertion through the sidepieces and blades before being cut off and peened over.

These three knives have embossed copper bales. All but one of my British WWII jackknives have steel bales. My five WWI jackknives have copper bales, one of which is broken. The strength of steel rather than wartime shortage of copper may be the reason for the switch. One can imagine that in the Far East a long time wet lanyard would cause a steel bale to rust and rot the lanyard.

The horn scales of these Indian made knives reminded me of a repair to a Wards 1066 Sheffield pocketknife. A horn scale was lifting and bending away from the knife. The knife was placed in boiling water to soften the horn, then quickly sandwiched between two pieces of wood and clamped tight with a 'G' clamp until cool, resulting in a near perfect repair.




16 February 2022
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