GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
This is another example of commercial marketing incorrectly using a knife term/word. A whittler is a 2 spring, 3 blade knife in which the master blade bears on both springs. The GEC #29 is a 3 spring, 3 blade knife. It lacks the important feature of the master blade bearing on 2 springs.
So what is it ?
A 3 spring Cattle knife is a closer match. A Cattle knife usually has a spear point master blade, but it can also have a clip blade master.
Does it matter ?
I think so. It misleads those who are just getting involved with knife collecting. An agreed upon definition of knife terms is needed for meaningful discussion.
I am looking forward to eventually getting one of the #29 Cattle knives.
kj
So what is it ?
A 3 spring Cattle knife is a closer match. A Cattle knife usually has a spear point master blade, but it can also have a clip blade master.
Does it matter ?
I think so. It misleads those who are just getting involved with knife collecting. An agreed upon definition of knife terms is needed for meaningful discussion.
I am looking forward to eventually getting one of the #29 Cattle knives.
kj
Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
KJ, you're right that the classic whittler has the split-back, two spring configuration, but I suspect that the "whittler" name on this #29 comes from the facts that the two secondary blades both pivot on the opposite end of the main blade, and the main clip folds in between the two opposite secondaries. Very similar to a cattle knife, but the cattle knives I've seen have the main and sheepsfoot both pivot from the same end, like the #98 Cattle Knife example. That's just my guess. I'd bet that GEC would use historical nomenclature.kootenay joe wrote:This is another example of commercial marketing incorrectly using a knife term/word. A whittler is a 2 spring, 3 blade knife in which the master blade bears on both springs. The GEC #29 is a 3 spring, 3 blade knife. It lacks the important feature of the master blade bearing on 2 springs.
So what is it ?
A 3 spring Cattle knife is a closer match. A Cattle knife usually has a spear point master blade, but it can also have a clip blade master.
Does it matter ?
I think so. It misleads those who are just getting involved with knife collecting. An agreed upon definition of knife terms is needed for meaningful discussion.
I am looking forward to eventually getting one of the #29 Cattle knives.
kj
The production pics show the backsprings in a black color. I've not seen this before. Are the finished backsprings still black? Or was that perhaps the carbon heat treat scale that had not yet been polished off? Anybody have any info on this?
- Lee
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
K. Joe,
Since 1990 Case's economy Whittlers have been three spring Whittlers. Queen's less expensive Whittlers had two springs with no wedge between them. Some times the two spring were tapered smaller toward the master end and some times the master was made out of thick stock so its tang would be as wide as the two springs. As far as I know all of Buck's Whittlers have had three springs. GEC's name for these 29s is consistent with how other U.S. manufacturers have been naming their knives for thirty years. My roughly ten year old 54 pattern GEC Whittlers have three springs so this is not new for GEC.
I do not know much about old pocket knives but some knives with spring assemblies other than a master bearing on two springs separated by a wedge were called Whittlers before WW II. Remington famously made lock back Whittlers that Queen reproduced. The two springs for their secondaries were separated by a wedge but those springs ended in the middle of the knife. The master had its own spring and back lock ahead of them. I'll go out on a limb and speculate that there were also three spring whittlers before WW II.
The same as with guns I like using the model names used by the knife's manufacturer.
I will not be buying one of these 29s but it has nothing to do with their spring assemblies. I do not use awls or punches often enough to justify giving up a cutting blade. If GEC replaced the punch with a Wharncliff similar to the one installed in 82 Dixie Stockmans then I'd be tempted.
Since 1990 Case's economy Whittlers have been three spring Whittlers. Queen's less expensive Whittlers had two springs with no wedge between them. Some times the two spring were tapered smaller toward the master end and some times the master was made out of thick stock so its tang would be as wide as the two springs. As far as I know all of Buck's Whittlers have had three springs. GEC's name for these 29s is consistent with how other U.S. manufacturers have been naming their knives for thirty years. My roughly ten year old 54 pattern GEC Whittlers have three springs so this is not new for GEC.
I do not know much about old pocket knives but some knives with spring assemblies other than a master bearing on two springs separated by a wedge were called Whittlers before WW II. Remington famously made lock back Whittlers that Queen reproduced. The two springs for their secondaries were separated by a wedge but those springs ended in the middle of the knife. The master had its own spring and back lock ahead of them. I'll go out on a limb and speculate that there were also three spring whittlers before WW II.
The same as with guns I like using the model names used by the knife's manufacturer.
I will not be buying one of these 29s but it has nothing to do with their spring assemblies. I do not use awls or punches often enough to justify giving up a cutting blade. If GEC replaced the punch with a Wharncliff similar to the one installed in 82 Dixie Stockmans then I'd be tempted.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Interesting discussion, but to my thinking any knife having “stockyard” in the name, and no spey blade, is mis-named. Based on this and other pattern names I’ve typically seen from GEC, everyone in their marketing department must be city slickers who wouldn’t know a cow from a jackass. JMO
Ken
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Quote: " everyone in their marketing department must be city slickers who wouldn’t know a cow from a jackass. JMO"
Maybe not 'everybody' but as pointed out above, manufacturers misusing the name "whittler" is nothing new. It has been done many times in the last 100 years. "Whittler" sounds attractive and probably helps a knife sell. Most knife buyers are unaware that there is a definition of "whittler". They just like the knife they bought and like the thought of maybe one day whittling which the knife can obviously do because of it's name. Say it is a Cattle knife and not many people like the idea of hanging out with a bunch of cows. What a knife is called affects sales.
But in a forum dedicated to knife information we should be using correct knife terminology. A 3 spring knife is not a whittler even if some company called it a whittler 100 years ago.
A lockback whittler is a unique and old pattern and the short spring for the master blade is as thick as the 2 secondary springs. It is not the same as having 3 full length springs. A 3 spring knife is bulky, like a small brick in your pocket, whereas a lockback whittler is the same thickness as a regular whittler, not bulky.
Regardless of name this upcoming #29 will be a really nice knife, even though somewhat bulky. Unlike a poster above, i find a punch blade very useful and you never will need the tip of the clip to poke at something.
kj
Maybe not 'everybody' but as pointed out above, manufacturers misusing the name "whittler" is nothing new. It has been done many times in the last 100 years. "Whittler" sounds attractive and probably helps a knife sell. Most knife buyers are unaware that there is a definition of "whittler". They just like the knife they bought and like the thought of maybe one day whittling which the knife can obviously do because of it's name. Say it is a Cattle knife and not many people like the idea of hanging out with a bunch of cows. What a knife is called affects sales.
But in a forum dedicated to knife information we should be using correct knife terminology. A 3 spring knife is not a whittler even if some company called it a whittler 100 years ago.
A lockback whittler is a unique and old pattern and the short spring for the master blade is as thick as the 2 secondary springs. It is not the same as having 3 full length springs. A 3 spring knife is bulky, like a small brick in your pocket, whereas a lockback whittler is the same thickness as a regular whittler, not bulky.
Regardless of name this upcoming #29 will be a really nice knife, even though somewhat bulky. Unlike a poster above, i find a punch blade very useful and you never will need the tip of the clip to poke at something.
kj
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
This pattern has a whittler blade setup. A true whittler is split spring but a knife can still be classified a whittler without split springs. The camillus 72 is an example of that.kootenay joe wrote:This is another example of commercial marketing incorrectly using a knife term/word. A whittler is a 2 spring, 3 blade knife in which the master blade bears on both springs. The GEC #29 is a 3 spring, 3 blade knife. It lacks the important feature of the master blade bearing on 2 springs.
So what is it ?
A 3 spring Cattle knife is a closer match. A Cattle knife usually has a spear point master blade, but it can also have a clip blade master.
Does it matter ?
I think so. It misleads those who are just getting involved with knife collecting. An agreed upon definition of knife terms is needed for meaningful discussion.
I am looking forward to eventually getting one of the #29 Cattle knives.
kj
I think this is an intriguing pattern and will likely be picking one up.
-Paul T.
WANTED: Shapleigh Diamond Edge branded Schrades in good condition.
WANTED: Shapleigh Diamond Edge branded Schrades in good condition.
Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I agree with KJ's point. I recall that we have had some pretty long discussions about the definition of whittler in the past. I guess is about time for another one! I was looking at the photos of the knife and thinking that I would might buy one since it does look appealing. But if it is a three spring whittler like the ones Buck made, then I guess I will pass. I would have felt misled if I had shelled out over a hundred dollars and then discovered that the knife was not really what I consider a whittler.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I agree that regardless of the springs two secondaries on one end and a master on the other makes a whittler but the Camillus 72 was a poor choice of an example. It has the basic features of a Stockman, one spring for a master and a secondary blade over each end of its second spring. It does not take a master clip with secondary spey and sheep's foot blaes for me to call knives Stockmans. Pen blades have been standard in Case's x333, x327, x3087 and x332 Stockmans for a very long time. I refuse to use Camillus' model name for their 72. However, I also refuse to call Buck's 110 a Folding Hunter using a capitalized F and H and I know I'll get no where with that argument. A better example that I did not remember when I wrote my first reply is Queen's three spring Railsplitter Whittler.KnifeSlinger#81 wrote: [...] This pattern has a whittler blade setup. A true whittler is split spring but a knife can still be classified a whittler without split springs. The camillus 72 is an example of that. [...]
Multiple members wrote that naming whittlers that do not have split backs Whittlers can mislead buyers. That worked to get more money out of my wallet once. Case's 6308 Whittlers were split backs in the 1970s but more recently have been made both as split backs and three spring Whittlers. They have the same blades so I can not tell which is which from a side view. From observing Case Whittlers I got the wrong idea that the pattern number suffix WH meant split back then was disappointed when another three spring arrived.
On the good side three spring whittlers are not all that much thicker than split backs. Like three spring stockmans, since springs positioned beside each other have blades on opposite ends they do not require liners between the springs.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Paul, it was Camillus marketing department that decided to promote the 72 pattern as a "whittler". This is no different from GEC in 2019 calling this 3 spring knife a whittler. Neither is a whittler pattern but this word helps sales so it has been 'over used'.
I have seen barehead jacks called a "Barlow" but they lack the long bolster so they are not a Barlow.
I believe it is important to use knife terms properly or in a few years we won't know what the other guy is talking about.
"Levine's Guide to Knives" explains every traditional knife pattern and their history. Every serious knife collector should have a copy, read it, and then refer back when examining a knife to refresh your memory. It also makes collecting more rewarding because most knives can teach you something when you read up on their history.
Knives are like any other item or topic, we need to know the basics before there can be meaningful discussion. To do otherwise promotes assumptions and mis-information.
kj
I have seen barehead jacks called a "Barlow" but they lack the long bolster so they are not a Barlow.
I believe it is important to use knife terms properly or in a few years we won't know what the other guy is talking about.
"Levine's Guide to Knives" explains every traditional knife pattern and their history. Every serious knife collector should have a copy, read it, and then refer back when examining a knife to refresh your memory. It also makes collecting more rewarding because most knives can teach you something when you read up on their history.
Knives are like any other item or topic, we need to know the basics before there can be meaningful discussion. To do otherwise promotes assumptions and mis-information.
kj
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
And "split spring whittler", is a one spring knife and these have not been made for about 150 years. I have been on the look out for one of these 'forever' but have yet to see one for sale. They are very rare.
kj
kj
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
And you're doing a fine job of it. Keep up the good work.Modern Slip Joints wrote: It's a great day to be a cantankerous old curmudgeon.
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This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Amen! I agree totally. If we don’t have any universally accepted definitions in common, we’re the Tower of Babel. And for me at least, learning about the histories of knife patterns, blade shapes, and their evolution is a major part of the fun. Mr. Levine’s book is an amazing resource, as you’ve pointed out, for “every traditional knife pattern and their history.” I have read it cover to cover, but have to keep it handy as there’s way more in it than my feeble mind can recall.kootenay joe wrote: I believe it is important to use knife terms properly or in a few years we won't know what the other guy is talking about.
"Levine's Guide to Knives" explains every traditional knife pattern and their history. Every serious knife collector should have a copy, read it, and then refer back when examining a knife to refresh your memory. It also makes collecting more rewarding because most knives can teach you something when you read up on their history.
Knives are like any other item or topic, we need to know the basics before there can be meaningful discussion. To do otherwise promotes assumptions and mis-information.
kj
Ken
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If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
So in the #29 we've got a Eureka pattern, and cattle knife blades in a whittler configuration with three springs that's being called a "Stockyard whittler". Probably an identity crisis, but most of us can agree that it's a nice, well built knife with three useful blades...
But nobody here is talking about the elephant in the room... that awful acrylic handle cover! This grits and butter mess is only slightly better than some of the others on my Least Wanted List: dead skunk, pheasant pheather, or God forbid, Mardi Gras confetti. This one is nearly as terrible, and people are going to buy it anyway. After seeing the month-long #93 Mother Of All Lolly Scrambles, I think at this point GEC could make sparkeley kitty litter clump acrylic and put it on a knife designed for pithing lab frogs, and they would still sell like hot cakes.
- Lee
But nobody here is talking about the elephant in the room... that awful acrylic handle cover! This grits and butter mess is only slightly better than some of the others on my Least Wanted List: dead skunk, pheasant pheather, or God forbid, Mardi Gras confetti. This one is nearly as terrible, and people are going to buy it anyway. After seeing the month-long #93 Mother Of All Lolly Scrambles, I think at this point GEC could make sparkeley kitty litter clump acrylic and put it on a knife designed for pithing lab frogs, and they would still sell like hot cakes.
- Lee
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
"Clumpy Kitty Litter Acrylic" ! I bet it would be a hot seller. Lee are you in marketing ?
Folks, send pictures of your kitty's litter box to GEC so they can come up with the right look for this new handle material.
But i am a dog lover so i'm holding out for the "Doggie Dump" acrylic.
kj
Folks, send pictures of your kitty's litter box to GEC so they can come up with the right look for this new handle material.
But i am a dog lover so i'm holding out for the "Doggie Dump" acrylic.
kj
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I sure hope it smells better! I don't care for it either.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I am looking forward to seeing production pics of the bone variations, call the pattern what you will, doesn't much matter to me. I think this has the potential to be a real handsome knife with the right bone and jigging.
Mike
There are those who are...and those who wish they were. He himself decides.
There are those who are...and those who wish they were. He himself decides.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
GEC posted bloodwood scales for the Northfield #29 Humpback knife , on the GEC Web-sight. I spotted the snakewood blanks earlier to day. I got my pre-order on the #29 Snakewood knife.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I agree with the sentiments being expressed about the name of the knife. They should use a kitchen sink as the shield. I'm trying to keep an open mind about the 3 backsprings on the Stockyard Whittler and hope the knife is not too wide.
Below are some top & bottom pictures of knives with 2 springs and 3 blades in a whittler configuration. 3 of the examples have a tapered frame and the springs separated by a wedge shaped liner. Interestingly one of them is a GEC 98 Texas whittler so GEC can make a knife like this if they want to.
The 4th example is a Canal Street Cannitler which is a mash up example like the "Stockyard Whittler". It has a whittler blade configuration, a non-tapered frame, and canoe bolsters. I happen to like the Cannitler and carry one frequently.
These examples are all pretty well made in that they don't show blade rub from opening and closing. My opinion is that the old Case Whittler is the most attractive of the bunch attached below and probably exhibits the most craftsmanship. I signed up for a Stockyard Whittler and am looking forward to trying it out. I will be disappointed if the Stockyard Whittler exhibits blade rubbing, especially with 3 springs.
Below are some top & bottom pictures of knives with 2 springs and 3 blades in a whittler configuration. 3 of the examples have a tapered frame and the springs separated by a wedge shaped liner. Interestingly one of them is a GEC 98 Texas whittler so GEC can make a knife like this if they want to.
The 4th example is a Canal Street Cannitler which is a mash up example like the "Stockyard Whittler". It has a whittler blade configuration, a non-tapered frame, and canoe bolsters. I happen to like the Cannitler and carry one frequently.
These examples are all pretty well made in that they don't show blade rub from opening and closing. My opinion is that the old Case Whittler is the most attractive of the bunch attached below and probably exhibits the most craftsmanship. I signed up for a Stockyard Whittler and am looking forward to trying it out. I will be disappointed if the Stockyard Whittler exhibits blade rubbing, especially with 3 springs.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Those pics are very interesting. The Canal Street whittler shows that a wedge shaped center liner is not needed. Are the secondaries thinner stock than on the Case ? If not then why is a wedge divider used ? Instead just use the little 'spacer bits' at the secondary end like in the Canal Street knife.
Is there something i am not understanding about whittler construction ?
kj
Is there something i am not understanding about whittler construction ?
kj
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Here is a Bulldog that I bought and sold recently. I had never seen a Whittler with such a thick main blade. I’m sure it was made this thick to rest against both back-springs. But that also required that they make the main blade a saber grind since tapering that thick of a piece of steel down to a fine edge would not be easy or particularly esthetic. There was no wedge and the springs were just straight springs. When it was open there was still a gap on both sides of the main blade. Also this main blade was a real nail breaker trying to open. I couldn’t get it open without using a knife pick, which is why I sold it and didn’t keep it.
After reading this discussion of Whittlers and having seen the flaws in this design, I can see why manufacturers have tinkered with these Whittlers to make them more user friendly while dealing with the mechanic nature of them.
After reading this discussion of Whittlers and having seen the flaws in this design, I can see why manufacturers have tinkered with these Whittlers to make them more user friendly while dealing with the mechanic nature of them.
SSk Mark “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.” Ronald Reagan
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Mark the thickness of master blade on the Bulldog is not unusual. The idea for a whittler is you have one strong thick blade and two thin secondaries for finer work. The springs in your knife are somewhat stronger than they should be as can happen with any brand. Don't assume if you see a whittler with a stout master blade that it will be hard to open. Most are fairly easy to open.
kj
kj
Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
Ha ha, no, I'm not in marketing but every now and then I feel like I come up with a winning idea though! And for the record, I did NOT encourage people to send in litter box pics to GEC. That part was Roland's idea.kootenay joe wrote:"Clumpy Kitty Litter Acrylic" ! I bet it would be a hot seller. Lee are you in marketing ?
Folks, send pictures of your kitty's litter box to GEC so they can come up with the right look for this new handle material.
kj
Here, Here! Yes, I agree completely. The first Autumn Gold bone production pics appeared today, and the jigging looks really nice. They're gonna be beautiful when finished. If I hadn't just bought four knives I'd consider getting this one. I considered getting a NW 93 today, good thing they sold out in all of 5 minutes, because if I had bought one I'd probably get killed in my sleep tonight.313 Mike wrote:I am looking forward to seeing production pics of the bone variations, call the pattern what you will, doesn't much matter to me. I think this has the potential to be a real handsome knife with the right bone and jigging.
Mark, I don't blame you for getting rid of that nasty thing! Tortoise shell acrylic... Yuck!Sharpnshinyknives wrote:Here is a Bulldog that I bought and sold recently.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
I like whittlers, or maybe it's that I like stockmans and whittlers are a classier way to get one long blade and two secondaries. A manufacturer's high end whittlers will be split backs with the wedge. The inside edges of the springs are filed so even though the springs meet at an angle the edges in contact are parallel. Consequently the master tang does not to be as wide. In addition to cost this design's draw back is that the secondaries project out of the handle angled off to the sides more than other whittlers except for lockbacks. Secondaries open parallel to their spring.kootenay joe wrote:Those pics are very interesting. The Canal Street whittler shows that a wedge shaped center liner is not needed. Are the secondaries thinner stock than on the Case ? If not then why is a wedge divider used ? Instead just use the little 'spacer bits' at the secondary end like in the Canal Street knife.
Is there something i am not understanding about whittler construction ?
kj
The best of the ones with no wedge have both springs tapered for their full length. The only whittlers I've handled that were made this way were Queens. Unlike split backs I have yet to handle one that did not have great snap.
Whittlers with no wedge and springs with out taper some times have fillers that are part of the liners in one or both ends. The fillers eliminate the need for wide blade stock. Others like the Bulldog that sharpnshinyknives did not keep just have very thick tangs. To avoid nail breaker snap the springs can be thinner front to back. sharpnshinyknives' Bulldog is the first one I've noticed that has such a thick blade near the tang. Usually the blades are ground down so they have normal thickness immediately in front of the tang. The secondaries of this group open parallel to the handle.
Three spring whittlers offer the option of filling all the blade wells with long blades. The secondaries of my three spring GEC 54 and Queen Sowbelly Whittlers are only slightly shorter than the master. They could have been named three blade moose. The short secondaries in Case and Buck's three spring Whittlers leave a lot of empty blade well that looks inefficient and collects lint in a pocket. However, they keep cost down and their blades open parallel to the handle. Also they are not as wide as you might envision because since the blades powered by springs that lay side by side are on opposite ends they do not need liners between the springs.
Apparently the new GEC 29 Stockyard Whittler will have a lot in common with Buck and case three spring whittlers. The whittler that comes to mind as being the closest to the new GEC was Queen's three spring Rail Splitter Whittler. Both have broad master clip and sheep's foot blades. What sets the the new GEC apart is its punch.
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Re: GEC#29 Stockyard Whittler knife 2019
MSJ, lots of info in your post ! Thank you.
Yes with a 3 spring knife you can have 3 full length blades but it makes for a more bulky knife. If you don't need all the blades to be full length then a 2 spring knife is fine and not as lumpy in the pocket. But if a big strong knife with 3 big strong blades is what you want, then the 3 spring is the knife for you.
kj
Yes with a 3 spring knife you can have 3 full length blades but it makes for a more bulky knife. If you don't need all the blades to be full length then a 2 spring knife is fine and not as lumpy in the pocket. But if a big strong knife with 3 big strong blades is what you want, then the 3 spring is the knife for you.
kj