My First “Old” Knife

[Rotten]

.....I think I've typed enough today!!, I'm going to go sit down and watch a 1950's JOHN WAYNE movie!!!.......... ...................

Got some pictures to share later today but right now I'm listening to Larry McMurtry 'Dead Man's Walk' audiobook while I sharpen. Enjoy your movie.

[Dollie]

Oh, thank you guys so much! No, I do not want to “polish” it and make it new. That is why I bought an old knife, love the character! I will follow all your advise. Can any of you weigh in on what you think the handle may be made of? Carmillus thought maybe bone then changed his mind. Not sure what else they made handles out of back in those days.

[gsmith7158]

Oh, thank you guys so much! No, I do not want to “polish” it and make it new. That is why I bought an old knife, love the character! I will follow all your advise. Can any of you weigh in on what you think the handle may be made of? Carmillus thought maybe bone then changed his mind. Not sure what else they made handles out of back in those days.

Dollie I have an old Sword Brand 72 that has those same handles it is some sort of composition that Camillus used before Delrin became available. I believe it was an early attempt to duplicate Stag handles.

[jerryd6818]

The handles are not bone. As Greg said, they are an early synthetic and are very brittle.

[orvet]

I love that pattern and the look of that handle material. I have several of them, the biggest problem with that pattern is people tended to not oil the joints so you end up with one or two blades that have no snap. That is a very common issue. I probably have three or four without snap for every one that I get that has snap. The other problem with them is those handles are held on with prongs and the handle material is celluloid. In my experience, it does not off gas as often as some other patterns like Christmas tree and candy stripe celluloid, but they look nice and feel nice in the hand.

[Dollie]

This is a great learning experience for me. Thanks guys, can’t wait to get my hands on it and get it cleaned up!
Will post pics of tang stamps when I get it and more when I get it cleaned up.

[orvet]

It appears to be the regular four line tang stamp and given the prong construction of the handles; I would date it mid to late 1930s to about 1945.
We were fortunate to have Tom Williams, the historian for Camillus Cutlery, as a member of a AAPK until he passed away a few years ago. Tom works for Camillus for 30 years and his mother works for Camillus for 55 years. Even Tom was hesitant to date Camillus knife by the tang stamp alone. He said you need to consider other factors such as the way it is constructed, the materials used in the knife as well as the tang stamp, before you could be accurate in your dating of an old Camillus knife.

There are no pins in the handles, the pictures are not large enough for me to be able to blow them up and see the handles clearly, but I am positive that handles are held on by prongs.
This is what the prongs look like with the handles removed –

If you look towards the end of your handle material just a ways away from the bolsters where those prongs are in my pictures you might even see the prongs of your knife sticking through the handle material. I can see the handle material (celluloid) is pulling away from the bolsters a little bit, so that usually means a shrinking and the cracking of the celluloid. That is not too bad in itself, but if they begin to get kind of a reddish haze to the bolsters that means they are in the presence of an acid which is leaching the copper out of the nickel silver. That is a good indicator that your knife is beginning a decomposition phase of the celluloid known as offgassing. In that case the thing to do is remove the handles and replace them with another material, like real stag, and continue to use your knife.

I mention I have several knives like yours and I have one that is in really good condition. I intend to put some stag handles on it that looked very much like the celluloid handles. I have a few pieces of stag left that came from the factory that are colored very nearly like your celluloid handles. I will post a picture of the knife later. I have to located it's in my shop somewhere.

[Dollie]

Orvet, I would love to see your knife when you put new stag scales on it! I probably won’t have someone do anything to mine until I start seeing some adverse effects. Then again, I may see yours and say “I gotta do it now”. Lol

[orvet]

Here are for pictures of one of my Sword Brand jackknives like the one in Dollie's post. As you can see it has the Sword Brand stamp on the front bolster of the master blade and the four-line Camillus tang stamp on the back tang of the master blade.
Note that in one of the pictures I have annotated it to point out the location of the prongs that hold the pins on and the cracks that have developed around them as the celluloid shrinks from the bolsters and pulls against the prongs.

As I said before I have several of this particular pattern at least four or five, and this is the only one that I deemed worth the effort to rebuild it. Had originally thought I would have to combine parts from two or three knives to make one good one but this one is in better condition than most of them I find.

I believe these knives were made in the mid-1930s along with the Streamline jackknives which also had celluloid handles. Both had very nice designs and the Streamline was absolutely gorgeous if you could find one in good condition, which I finally did. The dark one in the pictures below was about as close to Mint as I have found in a Camillus Streamline. Unfortunately it to one of the way of most celluloid and it began to off gas. I think I got the scales off before it caused any major damage. But you can see some damage on the pen blade from the offgassing.

Most of the Camillus Streamline celluloid knives are a lighter off-white/ivory type color, and it tends to off gas worse than the dark celluloid.

I have a real affinity for Camillus Streamline knives and I have a whole Plano tackle box tray full of Streamlines and parts. Some of them have been so badly damage they've actually fallen apart in my hands when I took the crumbling celluloid off.
If anybody's interested I can post pics of knives eaten up from celluloid off gassing.