Camillus 23

The Camillus Cutlery Company was one of the oldest knife manufacturers in the United States with roots dating back to 1876. The company manufactured Camillus branded knives and was a prolific contractor for other knife brands up until its last days in 2007 when the company filed for bankruptcy.
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Camillus 23

Post by Sasquach »

While I am not a big collector of Camillus knives I have always liked and owned many of their products. My knowledge of their history could be better so I'm here asking questions. The model 23 Jumbo Jack has always been a favorite of mine and I have at least three of them around here. My question is about the shield. None of mine have a shield but in doing a little research I found that the 23 is depicted in the 1946 Camillus catalog with a "bow tie" shield but no shield in the catalogs dated later. Can anyone tell me if that is solid dating indicator, any 23 with no shield is post 1946?
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Re: Camillus 23

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We used to have a good source of information on Camillus in the person of Tom Williams, (AAPK user name CAMCO), I have notes from some of the interviews I did with Tom posted into topics In the Camillus Cutlery Collectors Forum.
I believe most notes are in the topic; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=20082

Although there is useful information in this topic as well; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15607

My best guess at why the 23 pattern has no shield after World War II is that almost all of the #23s I have seen were made advertising knives for felt companies, most often for Best Felt. The explanation I've heard from Tom and others is that large sheets of felt used in the manufacturing process of the paper. These rolls of felt were enormous and the sheets of felt were cut from huge rolls. It took a large knife with a good edge to cut this felt and felt manufacturing companies apparently gave a lot of these large heavy #23 patterns away as advertising knives to the workers in the paper mills. I don't ever recall seeing one that was not an advertising knife. ::shrug::
I realize the answer is not definitive, but it's the best explanation I have for the phenomenon of not finding #23 patterns with shields after World War II. Perhaps someone else has some inside information on this.

On a side note related to this topic; does anyone have a #23 pattern with the four line tang stamp? I can't remember ever seeing a #23 with a four line tang stamp. If you have one please share picture of it on this topic, with the tang stamp visible.

I hope this helps answer your question.
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by tongueriver »

Thank you, Dale, Old Friend! Good info, and happy to hear from you again! ::tu::
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Re: Camillus 23

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orvet wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm My best guess at why the 23 pattern has no shield after World War II is that almost all of the #23s I have seen were made advertising knives for felt companies, most often for Best Felt.
I've noticed that when looking for 23s as well. A great many that I've seen for sale carry advertising for the Orr Felt Company.
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Re: Camillus 23

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orvet wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm We used to have a good source of information on Camillus in the person of Tom Williams, (AAPK user name CAMCO), I have notes from some of the interviews I did with Tom posted into topics In the Camillus Cutlery Collectors Forum.
I believe most notes are in the topic; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=20082

Although there is useful information in this topic as well; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15607

My best guess at why the 23 pattern has no shield after World War II is that almost all of the #23s I have seen were made advertising knives for felt companies, most often for Best Felt. The explanation I've heard from Tom and others is that large sheets of felt used in the manufacturing process of the paper. These rolls of felt were enormous and the sheets of felt were cut from huge rolls. It took a large knife with a good edge to cut this felt and felt manufacturing companies apparently gave a lot of these large heavy #23 patterns away as advertising knives to the workers in the paper mills. I don't ever recall seeing one that was not an advertising knife. ::shrug::
I realize the answer is not definitive, but it's the best explanation I have for the phenomenon of not finding #23 patterns with shields after World War II. Perhaps someone else has some inside information on this.

On a side note related to this topic; does anyone have a #23 pattern with the four line tang stamp? I can't remember ever seeing a #23 with a four line tang stamp. If you have one please share picture of it on this topic, with the tang stamp visible.

I hope this helps answer your question.
Thank you Dale. That is helpful. Perhaps you can be even more helpful with this, I purchased a Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co jumbo jack that I've been told was made for them by Camillus. It looks like a Camillus 23 clone and sports the bow tie shield exactly the same as the image of the 23 in the 1946 Camillus catalog. I know that HSB & Co stopped in 1960 and became True Value Hardware but I think this knife is older than the 60s. It is due to arrive later today via USPS but I have pics (below) from the vendor's listing. The link to the catalog I viewed is http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... illuss.pdf . Any info would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, none of the 23s I have are four line tang stamps and I believe they are all made later than this knife.

Also pictured below is one of those advertising 23s that I had re-handled in stag, it's one of my favorite EDCs.
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1108092864_tp.jpg (25.89 KiB) Viewed 1395 times
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1108092907_tp.jpg (26.47 KiB) Viewed 1395 times
Custom Camillus #23 I.jpg
Custom Camillus #23 II.jpg
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by FRJ »

Here is a long line 23 that has no advertising and no shield.
It has the usual plastic covers.
::tu::
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Re: Camillus 23

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Very nice Joe.

The one I posted above with the stag handles is a long line and the one pictured below is also a long line. I have another around here that I can't find at the moment which has a different handle material, instead of being the cream colored scales it looks more like cracked ice without the cracks. I'm pretty sure that one is a long line as well.
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CAMILLUS #23 Jumbo Jack 1960s - 1970s.JPG
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Re: Camillus 23

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Something else I noticed as I was going over all of this info, the 23 in the 1946 catalog not only has a bow tie shield, the master blade is swaged at the tip. The HSB & Co. also has that swage. None of the other 23 images from later catalogs or the ones I have have are swaged like that. I'm starting to think I can make a good case for dating the HSB & Co to the 1940s.
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Re: Camillus 23

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Dan In MI wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 6:57 pm
orvet wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm My best guess at why the 23 pattern has no shield after World War II is that almost all of the #23s I have seen were made advertising knives for felt companies, most often for Best Felt.
I've noticed that when looking for 23s as well. A great many that I've seen for sale carry advertising for the Orr Felt Company.
You are spot on Dan thank you! ::tu::
I think Best Felt was the advertiser on the last #23 that I modified, but you're absolutely correct Orr Felt is another advertiser that I have seen on the #23's. I also found pictures of one that I modified that had advertising for Albany Felt Company in Albany New York.

I always appreciate getting the correct information, especially when I have been the one who was mistaken.
Thanks again! ::handshake::
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Re: Camillus 23

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Sasquach wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 8:57 pm Something else I noticed as I was going over all of this info, the 23 in the 1946 catalog not only has a bow tie shield, the master blade is swaged at the tip. The HSB & Co. also has that swage. None of the other 23 images from later catalogs or the ones I have have are swaged like that. I'm starting to think I can make a good case for dating the HSB & Co to the 1940s.
Good research, Charlie.
Here is a short line 23 with the swaged blade. Recovered by Muskrat Man.

And while I'm at it, here is my other 23 long line also recovered by Muskrat Man.
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by orvet »

Sasquach wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 7:02 pm
orvet wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm We used to have a good source of information on Camillus in the person of Tom Williams, (AAPK user name CAMCO), I have notes from some of the interviews I did with Tom posted into topics In the Camillus Cutlery Collectors Forum.
I believe most notes are in the topic; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=20082

Although there is useful information in this topic as well; viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15607

My best guess at why the 23 pattern has no shield after World War II is that almost all of the #23s I have seen were made advertising knives for felt companies, most often for Best Felt. The explanation I've heard from Tom and others is that large sheets of felt used in the manufacturing process of the paper. These rolls of felt were enormous and the sheets of felt were cut from huge rolls. It took a large knife with a good edge to cut this felt and felt manufacturing companies apparently gave a lot of these large heavy #23 patterns away as advertising knives to the workers in the paper mills. I don't ever recall seeing one that was not an advertising knife. ::shrug::
I realize the answer is not definitive, but it's the best explanation I have for the phenomenon of not finding #23 patterns with shields after World War II. Perhaps someone else has some inside information on this.

On a side note related to this topic; does anyone have a #23 pattern with the four line tang stamp? I can't remember ever seeing a #23 with a four line tang stamp. If you have one please share picture of it on this topic, with the tang stamp visible.

I hope this helps answer your question.
Thank you Dale. That is helpful. Perhaps you can be even more helpful with this, I purchased a Hibbard Spencer Bartlett & Co jumbo jack that I've been told was made for them by Camillus. It looks like a Camillus 23 clone and sports the bow tie shield exactly the same as the image of the 23 in the 1946 Camillus catalog. I know that HSB & Co stopped in 1960 and became True Value Hardware but I think this knife is older than the 60s. It is due to arrive later today via USPS but I have pics (below) from the vendor's listing. The link to the catalog I viewed is http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... illuss.pdf . Any info would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, none of the 23s I have are four line tang stamps and I believe they are all made later than this knife.

Also pictured below is one of those advertising 23s that I had re-handled in stag, it's one of my favorite EDCs.

I believe you are correct, Camillus was known as the knife maker's knife maker, they made knives for most companies including Schrade, Case, Boker, Buck, etc., just to name some of the manufacturers they made knives for. They made many of knives for hardware supply companies like HS&B Co.

I'm going to post a few pictures of some of the #23's I have modified over the years. The pictures aren't always the clearest especially regarding tang stamp.

First is a short line with swedge that was an advertising knife for Albany Felt Company.
Cam #23 -K1.jpg
After a little work, it looked like this:
Mark side before finished.jpg

Another short line with swedge –
Camillus #23 stag custom b.jpg
I believe this one is also a short line, though it's difficult to tell from this photo:
Camillus #23 stag custom d.jpg
This last one was rehandled with stabilized Mammoth ivory. It is a long line tang stamp and there is no swedge ground Into the blade.
Camillus #23 fossil a.jpg
I don't know this answers any questions or if it raises more questions but that's what I have for the moment.
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by Vit_213 »

orvet wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm On a side note related to this topic; does anyone have a #23 pattern with the four line tang stamp? I can't remember ever seeing a #23 with a four line tang stamp. If you have one please share picture of it on this topic, with the tang stamp visible.
Hello Dale,
Two digit model numbers and three lines tang stamp were both introduced in 1946. Four lines tang stamp may have been used after 1946 (Camillus didn't throw anything away), but they didn't have a model number.
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by Vit_213 »

Sasquach wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 3:30 pm any 23 with no shield is post 1946?
Yes, the shield was dropped in 1947 (see page 9 of the 1946 catalog)
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Re: Camillus 23

Post by Vit_213 »

My #23 (short line)
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Re: Camillus 23

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Thank you Joe and VIT.

Thank you very much Dale.

All of this is very helpful and informative. Let me see if I've got this right. The short line 23s you guys posted all seem to have the swage on the master blade and none of the long line 23s I've seen (so far) are swaged. However in the catalogs the 23 is depicted with the swage on the master blade up to 1978 in the catalogs where it is shown with no swage. Camillus stopped using the short line in 1950, is that right? So my next question is did they stop the swage in 1978? Earlier I said I wasn't much of a Camillus collector but after this I might be able to qualify as one.You guys are great! ::super_happy::

The knife arrived late yesterday and below are some pics I took this morning (not my best work). It definitely matches up perfectly with the Camillus 23 pictured in the 1946 catalog, the only difference being the tang stamp. The pile side is stamped 9911. So was this knife made by Camillus in 1946 based on the shield? If so it's not in bad shape with minimal shrinkage, minimal blade wear, one small pin crack, and a slight dent in the shield. Not too shabby if it's been around for 76 years.
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HBS II.jpg
HBS III.jpg
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Re: Camillus 23

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You are welcome, Dale. And y'all are showing some beautiful knives! Though it'll likely be a while before I find a 23 at a price I'm willing to pay.
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Re: Camillus 23

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Dan In MI wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:12 pm You are welcome, Dale. And y'all are showing some beautiful knives! Though it'll likely be a while before I find a 23 at a price I'm willing to pay.
Hard to believe they were only 10 dollar knives when I enlisted in the Army. But I guess that is tempered by the fact that a private E1 made 188 dollars a month at the time
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Re: Camillus 23

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My enlistment ended the year before Camillus went under. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought a few Camillus knives while on deployment in 2006.
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Re: Camillus 23

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What a great thread! Lots of history along with everyone sharing pictures of their 23s. I’m drooling over Dales mammoth ivory 23. ::drool:: Great work everyone! Here’s a picture of my short line 23.
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Re: Camillus 23

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Nice knife, Randy. ::tu::
Those 23s are a great knife. ::nod::
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Re: Camillus 23

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Thanks Joe!
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Re: Camillus 23

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#goldpan wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:53 am What a great thread! Lots of history along with everyone sharing pictures of their 23s. I’m drooling over Dales mammoth ivory 23. ::drool:: Great work everyone! Here’s a picture of my short line 23.
Nice 23 Randy. Glad you like the thread.

I started it to get a little information and I ended up getting quite a bit more than a little! These guys are a wealth of information and I thank them all.

While I'm in the process of getting all of this knowledge, I have a question about your 23. I notice that the handle material on yours is almost iridescent, like cracked ice without the cracks. Unless that is a trick of the light. I mentioned above that I had one with that type of handle but couldn't find it. It's a good thing I keep pretty complete records of my collection...the reason I couldn't find it is because I gifted it to a friend and fellow collector a couple of years ago. Wish I had taken a picture of it. What I'm wondering is what's the difference between the cream colored delrin like scales and the iridescent or pearly ones like yours? Is there a date range on that particular material?
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Re: Camillus 23

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Sasquach wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:21 am
#goldpan wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:53 am What a great thread! Lots of history along with everyone sharing pictures of their 23s. I’m drooling over Dales mammoth ivory 23. ::drool:: Great work everyone! Here’s a picture of my short line 23.
Nice 23 Randy. Glad you like the thread.

I started it to get a little information and I ended up getting quite a bit more than a little! These guys are a wealth of information and I thank them all.

While I'm in the process of getting all of this knowledge, I have a question about your 23. I notice that the handle material on yours is almost iridescent, like cracked ice without the cracks. Unless that is a trick of the light. I mentioned above that I had one with that type of handle but couldn't find it. It's a good thing I keep pretty complete records of my collection...the reason I couldn't find it is because I gifted it to a friend and fellow collector a couple of years ago. Wish I had taken a picture of it. What I'm wondering is what's the difference between the cream colored delrin like scales and the iridescent or pearly ones like yours? Is there a date range on that particular material?

Well now that you mentioned it the handles on mine are pearly looking. I’ve had a couple in the past that were plain white. I’m not sure what the material is. Of course the short line tang stamp indicates a time line of 1946-1950’s. Perhaps those handles were optional. Maybe someone else can take a swing at the dates for those handles. The information already posted here has been an education about the 23 pattern. Wish I knew more!
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Re: Camillus 23

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So, in reference to handle material, I went back through the catalogs so kindly made available at http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.htm and the handle material on the 23 is listed as Pyroxylin in the 1946, 1948, 1954, 1955, 1959, & 1965 catalogs. In the 1967, 1972, & 1973 catalogs it is listed as Genuine Grain White. The 1978 catalog lists Smooth Simulated Ivory. The 1979 catalog lists Ivory Propionate. The 1983 and 1984 catalogs list Smooth Simulated Ivory. And the last reference I found was in the 1992 catalog, it made no specific reference to the 23 handles but at the top of the page Delrin was listed leading one to assume it was for all of the knives on that page...not sure. The images in the catalogs don't really show a difference when the material is listed differently. So, now I know that the handle material changed several times (at least in the way it was listed in the catalogs) but I'm still wondering what the story of the pearly looking handles is.
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