Date on handbook in research section?

[Modern Slip Joints]

AAPK has great copies of an old Schrade handbook here: https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/co ... -handbook/
Unfortunately no date shows in the pictures. The handbook writes Schrade used 1095 carbon steel and 440A stainless steel. I want to know if 1095 was used throughout U.S. production of Old Timers. Also I'd like to read if members who have extensively used Old Timers from different time periods found any difference it their blade's ability to hold an edge. How sharp you can get one and how sharp they came new is of no interest, only edge retention. Comparisons to other brands that you used about the same time would be nice also.

[black mamba]

By all the anecdotal evidence I've ever heard, Schrade ran their blade steel harder (better retention) than anyone else. Reports from users with hardness testers post HRc levels of 57+, during the same time frame when Case ran their steel at 53-55. As further evidence, you see many old fixed blades from Case, Western, Camillus, etc. with very narrow, sharpened away blades, yet you hardly ever see a Schrade with less than a full blade, even though they exhibit signs of great usage (worn handles, very stained blades, etc.).

[orvet]

I copied that brochure and Bryan posted it in the research section.
I don't recall a date anywhere on it, I will have to dig and find the original , I think I still have it. My gut feeling and looking at their literature is that this was probably produced in the late 1980s or 1990s.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

By all the anecdotal evidence I've ever heard, Schrade ran their blade steel harder (better retention) than anyone else. Reports from users with hardness testers post HRc levels of 57+, during the same time frame when Case ran their steel at 53-55. As further evidence, you see many old fixed blades from Case, Western, Camillus, etc. with very narrow, sharpened away blades, yet you hardly ever see a Schrade with less than a full blade, even though they exhibit signs of great usage (worn handles, very stained blades, etc.).

I have seen many schrades with worn down blades. A sharpened down blade has less to do with hardness than it does with how often was the knife sharpened, and when sharpened was it oversharpened i.e. forming a large burr every time and removing excess steel. Even when run hard 1095 still doesn't have a high wear resistance, which would help prevent blade wear but 1095 doesn't have that trait.

[orvet]

I found the copy of the brochure from which I made the electronic file that you see posted in the Schrade research section. What I used was actually a photocopy of an original brochure. When I was doing the research for the spreadsheets listing the Schrade dates manufacture of each knife, I was doing a lot of purchasing of catalogs and sharing information. I had two invaluable sources, both members of AAPK Rich Langston and Larry Vickery. Rich Langston has an incredible collection of Schrade and was very helpful and sharing his information with myself and Larry. Larry and I traded a lot of information and Larry establish the website http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/

A little further research into the use of the names and the addresses on other Schrade printed material, specifically pricelists and catalogs and I would date this brochure after 1986. I don't have time to do this research now to establish a date range of when it might of been produced but I would say probably within 10 years, circa 1986 – 1996. There was a name change of the corporation in 1985; it was then Albert Baer changed the name Imperial Knife Associated Co. to Imperial Schrade Corp..
Looking at the 1983 and 1984 catalogs and pricelists both, the name at the top of the page is Schrade Cutlery Corp., in 1985 that was changed to Schrade Cutlery.
The address atop the wholesale price list in 1984 and 1985 was listed as 30 Canal St., Ellenville NY.
In 1986 and later years the address was changed to Route 209 North, Ellenville, NY.
You will notice that it is the same address as appears on the front of this brochure. The logo of the Cutler Over Schrade Cutlery and the address is the same as appears on the wholesale price list. The brochure does not have the phone number nor the establish 1904 date beside the Cutler, but it is essentially the same graphics. This is why I would date that brochure as 1986 or later.

Unfortunately no date shows in the pictures. The handbook writes Schrade used 1095 carbon steel and 440A stainless steel. I want to know if 1095 was used throughout U.S. production of Old Timers.

So far as I know they use the 1095 steel for all of their carbon steel knives, I would qualify that and say "most of their carbon steel knives." The reason for that is we are talking about Schrade and they always tended to change things up and do things differently. I have frequently said, "There is nothing carved in stone with Schrade, and only a few things can be etched in Jell-O." That's my way of saying that the constant with Schrade was change. They were always trying something different and trying to improve things. At one point in time they absolutely dominated the world cutlery market! The owner of Schrade, Albert Baer, owned Schrade, Ulster, (which was phased out before 1990), Imperial, the Listowel factory of Imperial in Ireland, also George Wostenholm in Sheffield England, and there were many more ventures as well. They definitely had exposure to different ways of doing things and I think they would experiment with them from time to time. That said; as far as the steel goes I know of nothing that says they deviated from 1095.
HOWEVER, I have heard, from people more knowledgeable than myself, that this deal itself over time changed. What US manufacturers were selling as 1095 carbon steel in 1930 probably had a different chemical analysis than 1095 carbon steel that was sold in 1990. That is the function of improved technology and research. Of course for the steel industry and improvement might mean that they could make it at a 10% savings and you and I might think it does not hold an edge quite as well as it used to. I don't think the steel industry will be terribly bothered by that, they would probably see it as improvement in the steel.

Also I'd like to read if members who have extensively used Old Timers from different time periods found any difference it their blade's ability to hold an edge. How sharp you can get one and how sharp they came new is of no interest, only edge retention. Comparisons to other brands that you used about the same time would be nice also.

I collect Schrades from different time periods both Old Timer, Uncle Henry and the Open Stock series. The later Uncle Henry knives were primarily stainless steel but there were some really ones that were very good carbon steel.
In addition to collecting I also repair knives. I think the finest carbon steel knives ever made, at least in America, are arguably the Western knives that were made prior to the acquisition of Western by the Coleman group, I think that was in the mid-1980s.
As a fan of carbon steel and one who often works on older knives in the restoration process I generally sharpen these knives and try them out to make sure they are functioning properly. The steel made prior to 1975 (roughly) seems to have a different feel when you cut with it then later carbon steel does, even within the same brand such as Old Timer. That time varies from company to company because some companies kept a larger inventory of steel on hand, or had slower production years and didn't use up the older steel as fast as other companies may have. It is my opinion, it has been discussed here on AAPK before, that something happened to change the carbon steel in the early 1970s. I don't think we ever establish whether it was a change in chemical composition of the steel, and industrywide change in technology or just a change in the way companies heat-treated their blades. There are many possible variables.

If you are asking do older carbon steel knives cut better and have better edge retention than some of the ones made much later circa 1990, then I would answer "Yes, I think they do."

Well, I have to bail, I have knives to get ready for a show next month and I have other knives to list in my store today. I would invite other members to step into this discussion and continue it, because I don't think we've ever definitively solved this issue involving the seeming difference in carbon steel made earlier in the 1900s and that made later.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

The older (as in cut and early walden) schrades sharpen easier to me, but I think a big part of that is because back then they ground the blades more thin. Obviously a more thin blade will get sharper with less effort, it's just physics. The steel on the old knives very well could have been softer and it seems like it may be on the ones I've sharpened, but I think the differences are minimal when compared in real world sharpening and real world use. They all work fine for my purposes.

However, there is a big difference between the stainless steel of the cuts and the later schrade+ steel. The schrade+ is far superior, holds an edge better and is easier to sharpen. To be fair the stainless cuts were an early attempt as using stainless while the carbon knives were well tested and proven, which is why stainless didn't get popular until much later. The old cut stainless is easy to grind but it's stubborn about raising a burr, so sharpening it while minimizing the burr to get a sharp and unweakened edge is more tricky than schrade+. I love schrade+ steel, it's great stuff and I've never found it to be unsuitable for any task.

[orvet]

I don't disagree with you at all Paul, any difference we might have would be a minor degree or two of emphasis.
I'm totally on board with your assessment of Schrade + steel®, it is far superior IMHO than any of the earlier stainless steels and also in my opinion I think it is a better steel than Case.

Regarding the earlier carbon steel's, I think Westerns was by and for the best for ease of sharpening and edge retention.
I have used a few Remington's, and I've worked on quite a few Remington's and they always seem to really have the blades worn down. Someone told me it was because there blades were much softer maybe 53 to 55 Rockwell C as opposed to 57 to 59 Rockwell C. That may or may not be true but it would definitely explain why the Remington knives I see and those that come to me for repair have such worn down blades.

I say this realizing that plausible explanations are probably all we will ever get on this topic.