my dads schrade 1907

[tongueriver]

I'm not saying it can't be from 1907 but I think it's more likely to be at least 10 years newer than that. Schrade started business in 1904, so 1907 would be a very early knife and the tang stamps on your knife were not known to exist in 1907. Either way nice heirloom knife from your father.

Here is a cut of what your knife could be, from the 1928 catalog. They also made this with a sheepsfoot instead of a spey, but the blades are worn enough that I can't tell which variant yours is.

IMG_4570.PNG

I am going to ride shotgun on this post. That is where I am at on this subject. I am really pleased to see this knife; it is special.

[bladecollectorr]

The dust just settled on an auction that I found pretty interesting and seemingly adds some new data to Schrade tang-stamp usage dates.

Up for auction was what I think is a 7309GSil as listed in the 1926 catalog. Catalog listing doesn't mention "raised rivet heads" so it may be possible that R7309GSil is closer to the mark.

Regardless, it's a 2-blade senator that commemorates the "Panama-California Exposition". On the reverse is "San Diego, California, 1915-1916". Wikipedia seems to agree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama%E2 ... Exposition

This Exposition lasted for two full years: all of 1915 and 1916. Here's the thing...

Tang-stamp is 3-line, straight "Schrade" over "Cut Co" over "Walden NY". I think this strongly suggests the straight-line (vs arched) stamping was in use prior to 1917 and more likely it was already in use by 1914. My theory is that there would be no point in ordering a bunch of these knives after the event ended and they were more likely made in 1914 or 1915 to sell during this Exposition.

I think it may well be possible that lakeside6a's knife was made earlier than 1917. Who knows? This earliest Schrade history is pretty muddy.

The future of the "Panama-California" knife is crystal clear to me though because I did indeed land it. It will be carefully hand-polished when it arrives. I just got some 10000-grit sandpaper to up my mirror-polishing game a little from the 7000-grit I was maxing-out at before. It's cool to have a 100+ year-old Schrade with a definite date on it even if it's a really basic knife.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

The dust just settled on an auction that I found pretty interesting and seemingly adds some new data to Schrade tang-stamp usage dates.

Up for auction was what I think is a 7309GSil as listed in the 1926 catalog. Catalog listing doesn't mention "raised rivet heads" so it may be possible that R7309GSil is closer to the mark.

Regardless, it's a 2-blade senator that commemorates the "Panama-California Exposition". On the reverse is "San Diego, California, 1915-1916". Wikipedia seems to agree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama%E2 ... Exposition

This Exposition lasted for two full years: all of 1915 and 1916. Here's the thing...

Tang-stamp is 3-line, straight "Schrade" over "Cut Co" over "Walden NY". I think this strongly suggests the straight-line (vs arched) stamping was in use prior to 1917 and more likely it was already in use by 1914. My theory is that there would be no point in ordering a bunch of these knives after the event ended and they were more likely made in 1914 or 1915 to sell during this Exposition.

I think it may well be possible that lakeside6a's knife was made earlier than 1917. Who knows? This earliest Schrade history is pretty muddy.

The future of the "Panama-California" knife is crystal clear to me though because I did indeed land it. It will be carefully hand-polished when it arrives. I just got some 10000-grit sandpaper to up my mirror-polishing game a little from the 7000-grit I was maxing-out at before. It's cool to have a 100+ year-old Schrade with a definite date on it even if it's a really basic knife.

Very good and intriguing detective work.

[kootenay joe]

Note: the 8344K shown on previous page is not in the 1926 catalog. It is in one of the "supplements" probably 1928. Likely it was not made until 1928.
I cannot find any stock knives of this size with square bolsters in the 1926 catalog.
This is a very common situation with knife collecting. Family history is certain that knife was acquired in a certain year, yet knife catalogs etc. document the knife could not have been made until 10 or even 20 years later.
The reason is because memory is not like a recording. Memory changes over time even though it seems 100% accurate & factual.
I doubt the O.P. knife is any older than 1928.
kj

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Note: the 8344K shown on previous page is not in the 1926 catalog. It is in one of the "supplements" probably 1928. Likely it was not made until 1928.
I cannot find any stock knives of this size with square bolsters in the 1926 catalog.
This is a very common situation with knife collecting. Family history is certain that knife was acquired in a certain year, yet knife catalogs etc. document the knife could not have been made until 10 or even 20 years later.
The reason is because memory is not like a recording. Memory changes over time even though it seems 100% accurate & factual.
I doubt the O.P. knife is any older than 1928.
kj

Roland you are correct that pattern is not in the 1926 catalog and is in the 1928 supplement; However I don't think it's safe to assume the 8344K and it's variants were not made before 1928. There are many patterns that were never catalogued, cut co and walden. I have seen examples of these knives themselves. The catalogs are a great help and source of information but they are not a hard and fast rule as to exactly when and what all schrade made.

[bladecollectorr]

When I made my earlier post I was focused on the idea that straight-line stamp might have been used in 1914. I wasn't thinking of the O.P.'s knife as being a 8344K as I hadn't re-read the first page of posts.

Now I've taken a look at catalogs and I agree that is the most likely pattern. This makes me agree with kootenay joe's assessment.

I'd say it's way more likely it was made in 1928 or later and the story got modified as it flowed through time. I can't remember a single thing from when I was 8 years old. I will also agree with knifeslinger about possible exceptions to every rule about Schrade and leave it like that.

[kootenay joe]

Cattle knives came before Stock knives. There are a lot of Cattle knives in the 1926 catalog and fewer stockman knives. All the stockman are 4" aka "Texas pattern". There often were knives produced that were not in a catalog. The smaller size of O.P. knife makes me think earlier production was unlikely given that Cattle knives were more in demand at that time than stockman knives.
kj

[tongueriver]

There are a lot of Cattle knives in the 1926 catalog and fewer stockman knives. All the stockman are 4" aka "Texas pattern".
kj

On pages 48 and 49 of Catalog E (not one of the supplements)there are five different patterns of 3.5 inch stockmans with 3 blades each. Also two more with only two blades each. This is not counting the variations also listed.

[kootenay joe]

You are right. I had thought those were 4".
I was looking for a junior stockman with square bolsters like the o.p. knife and do not see any until 1928 supplement.
kj

[REDTROUT]

SOME REAL PEACH SEED KNIVES.JUST SOME SALESMAN KNIVES ALL ARE MINT.

[samb1955]

Amazing that he held on it for all those years especially getting it at 8 years old. Hope you can pass it on to another family member when you think it's time for a new home. Great history on the knife!

[kootenay joe]

Redtrout, those look pretty nice. Are you thinking of selling a few ?
kj

[JAMESC41001]

The dust just settled on an auction that I found pretty interesting and seemingly adds some new data to Schrade tang-stamp usage dates.

Up for auction was what I think is a 7309GSil as listed in the 1926 catalog. Catalog listing doesn't mention "raised rivet heads" so it may be possible that R7309GSil is closer to the mark.

Regardless, it's a 2-blade senator that commemorates the "Panama-California Exposition". On the reverse is "San Diego, California, 1915-1916". Wikipedia seems to agree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama%E2 ... Exposition

This Exposition lasted for two full years: all of 1915 and 1916. Here's the thing...

Tang-stamp is 3-line, straight "Schrade" over "Cut Co" over "Walden NY". I think this strongly suggests the straight-line (vs arched) stamping was in use prior to 1917 and more likely it was already in use by 1914. My theory is that there would be no point in ordering a bunch of these knives after the event ended and they were more likely made in 1914 or 1915 to sell during this Exposition.

I think it may well be possible that lakeside6a's knife was made earlier than 1917. Who knows? This earliest Schrade history is pretty muddy.

The future of the "Panama-California" knife is crystal clear to me though because I did indeed land it. It will be carefully hand-polished when it arrives. I just got some 10000-grit sandpaper to up my mirror-polishing game a little from the 7000-grit I was maxing-out at before. It's cool to have a 100+ year-old Schrade with a definite date on it even if it's a really basic knife.

Blade collector, thank you for posting the knife and that info. I have been collecting and studying curved stamp schrades for a few years now. I had thought somewhere between 1914-1917 was the first straight line stamp but your knife is significant here. Schrade reorganized in 1914-1915 due to what was going on between the Schrade brothers. I think this combined with your knife posted here is compelling evidence for the changeover year. Thanks again.
Jay

[tongueriver]

Whether a knife and its stamp in question are from 1904 and 2004, the stamps were running changes and might overlap by five years depending on how worn they were and of course that depended on how many blades were struck with them.

[JAMESC41001]

That’s true Cal, but the first straighline stamp is the first straight line stamp.

[tongueriver]

Here are some fictional scenarios to illustrate a point:
8 May 1913: Bob Beeblefester, shop foreman: “Jimmy, we have a special run of commemorative knives and I want to try out a new stamp. Get her done.” The knives were done with a new straight line stamp. After the run, the shop foreman says, “Well… I don’t think we will use that new stamp anymore for awhile; maybe later.” 4 June 1917: Dale Dinglehoffer, new shop foreman: “ Kenny, I found this old straightline stamp in a wooden box on the shelf; what do you think?” Kenny: “I like it; let’s see how it goes.” It went well, and new stamps in different sizes were ordered and that was the norm for many years.
14 November 1931: from George Hecklegripper, a letter to Schrade CutCo: “Dear Sirs: I have this old commemorative knife from the exposition that my Grand daddy had but the blades, although full, have been sitting in a bad place and need to be replaced. Please fix the knife with new blades and I will pay whatever is necessary; it is an important icon in the family.” From Schrade CutCo: “ We can do that; please accept our offer of a free replacement for your knife’s blades; they are not exactly the same but fit perfectly.”
12 August 1928: from Bill Buckhorn, a letter to Schrade CutCo: “Dear Sirs: I am a scout leader and need to outfit some of my young boys with minimalist knives to get them started; they are the cub scout crew and they don’t need a full size knife and I am unable to come up with much in the way of money. Can you help me?”
From Schrade CutCo: “Dear Sir- We would be delighted to help you in possibly this manner. We have an old box of frames from the Panama Exposition with no blades but we do have plenty of blades from a newer version of that frame and can outfit your young ones for a minimum charge.”
Etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.
You may get my point, which is that all of the posts in this thread, including my own, are strictly anecdotal evidence or theories and prove absolutely nothing. The only folk who actually could provide the answer have been dead for decades.
My personal theory? I think that a trickle of straightline stamps were started earlier than originally thought, but were not used perhaps in great numbers. Nobody knows now and they never will.

[bladecollectorr]

I'm going with Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is the most likely. I think a knife with a year on it, commemorating a specific event was most likely made that year.
When it changed from curved to straight stamps it may indeed have been a running change with stamps for some patterns wearing out before others. The name of the company didn't change back then so both stamps would have stayed appropriate.

Schrade didn't always just keep using stamps until they wore out though. The "Schrade Walden" stamped Golden Spikes (153UH) come to mind. There is no way a full five years of production continuously stamped "Walden" on Golden Spikes. They are too few and far between.

Schrade Walden had just changed to Schrade at that time and I think management made a hard change on all their stamps. Some preexisting Walden stamped blades may have been used up after the name change but my understanding is they stopped stamping "Walden" in 1973.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

I think the exposition knife provides a good case for the possibility of straight line stamps being used from 1915-1916 onwards. The only concern I have is that it's a one-off example. I wouldn't discount possibilities like what Cal suggests. It's one of those things that we may never know for sure but we will keep trying to find out.

[JAMESC41001]

Couple things to keep in mind here are that Schrade reorganized both their leadership and production methods at exactly this time frame. George Schrade was off to Europe selling machines he had invented. His whole life was always on to the next thing. He did not sit still. In his absence brothers William and Louis took over the company. They incorporated new equipment which almost certainly included new stamping and pressing machines. Like the Waterbury-Ferrell tang stamping machines listed in the Walden auction papers. This was the same time New York knife electrified their factory. Which may mean this was when electricity was largely available in Walden opening up many more options for equipment. These new machines likely required new stamps and on and on. All happened during the time this exposition knife was made.

[ea42]

I actually think the arched stamps, which were early stamps, and straight stamps were used simultaneously on the early Schrades. The straight stamp would have been the go to stamp on blades smaller than the standard jack knife blade. The arch would have taken up too much room on a good number of smaller tangs. The problem is there isn't any definitive info on the early Schrade tang stamps, even from Goins. As far as I know it's all hearsay and rumors. Three years was more than enough time for those old cutleries to develop a mind boggling array of patterns. I wouldn't doubt that the purported age of that knife is accurate. I'd definitely give his dad the benefit of the doubt, especially since he was around long before any of us. What an amazing heirloom!

For example; this is a Schrade Cut. Co. knife with the Germany tang stamp, which was pre-1911 and likely a good number of years earlier:

Eric

[JAMESC41001]

Eric, Wally told me the scissors were contracted to Germany that’s why they have that stamp. I notice the other blade says Walden. As you know the picture Herman has in Seargents book says Germany and when Rich L pressed him on this even Herman believes it was a one off. Like you said though none of this is written in stone but it is a great conversation between many people with unique and helpful insight. I had a thought earlier that maybe the knife went in for a warranty issue at some point. This gentleman did have it for a loooong time. Just a thought.

[ea42]

Jay, Schrade had the scissors made in Germany very early on as they didn't initially have the means to make scissors here. This was before WWI. This relationship ended once the war started, and never started back up afterward. These weren't one off's, they were part of early production and I think whoever made them was a connection that George Schrade had while he was in Germany. This info was gleaned from a conversation I had with Dave Swinden several years ago.

Eric

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Jay, Schrade had the scissors made in Germany very early on as they didn't initially have the means to make scissors here. This was before WWI. This relationship ended once the war started, and never started back up afterward. These weren't one off's, they were part of early production and I think whoever made them was a connection that George Schrade had while he was in Germany. This info was gleaned from a conversation I had with Dave Swinden several years ago.

Eric

This also makes sense because german products became much less popular in the US (and worldwide) during and after WW1, for obvious reasons.

[JAMESC41001]

Hey Eric, what I meant to say was the knife pictured in jim Seargeants book has Germany on the main blade. To my knowledge this is the only example that’s been seen with German on the main. Have you see any others like that?

[TripleF]

lakeside, that is quiet a treasure you have there. Congratulations and thanks for sharing.

What he said!!!