Old vs New USA Steel--which is best?

[hard.times.lures]

I have been a commercial knife sharpener for over 35 years--working at ACE hardware stores, gun shows and life stock auctions. My question is about carbon steel Schrade knives.

Over the years I have had customers who claim that their Schrade Walden would hold a better edge than Old Timers. Some would say their Old Timer was better edge holder than their Schrades, etc.

In sharpening the knives, I have noticed that they sharpen up about the same, but I don't know about if one holds a better edge than another.

What are your opinions?

ALSO--do any of you use the Lansky crock sticks or Spyderco Sharpmaker to sharpen your knives? If so, how well do they sharpen the blades?

Thanks Kindly, Bryan

[Steve Warden]

Can't speak about the steel, but I do use a Lansky Turnbox, the TB2D2C. It has 2 diamond coated rods (D) and 2 ceramic rods (C). Can set for 20 or 25 degrees. I love mine.

[Quick Steel]

I've used my Spyderco Sharpmaker on many knives. Have always been satisfied. It will only set a 20° edge. When I want a 15° edge I use my AG Russell Field Sharpener.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

I have been a commercial knife sharpener for over 35 years--working at ACE hardware stores, gun shows and life stock auctions. My question is about carbon steel Schrade knives.

Over the years I have had customers who claim that their Schrade Walden would hold a better edge than Old Timers. Some would say their Old Timer was better edge holder than their Schrades, etc.

In sharpening the knives, I have noticed that they sharpen up about the same, but I don't know about if one holds a better edge than another.

What are your opinions?

Thanks Kindly, Bryan

Old timer is a product line of schrade, they are not separate entities. The carbon steel is one and the same.

Here's an example. Both of these knives are schrades. The top one is an "open stock" 861 pattern. The bottom is an old timer 61ot pattern. They are identical in design, steel, materials, etc. The reason for the redundancy in patterns is because the open stock schrades preceded the old timer line and they were made concurrently at times until the open stock models were discontinued in favor of the same patterns but in the old timer line.

[orvet]

I think there is a slight difference in the edge holding ability of a Schrade Walden and a post 1973 Schrade. This has been discussed before here on a AAPK. I think the difference may be a slight change in the heat treating process or it may even have been a slight change in the steel by the manufacturer, maybe not something Schrade was involved with it all.

I believe the same is true not just of Schrade but other brands as well. I have noticed a similar change in Camillus knives, with those being made prior to approximately 1970 having better edge retention than those made after that time. It is difficult to describe because it's very subjective but to me a older carbon steel knife feels like it has less resistance when it's sliding through whatever you are cutting. It's a very intangible thing but it feels to me like the knife is helping me cut through whatever I'm cutting.

I am not surprised that some people think the Old Timer holds the edge better than other Schrades, especially if they are comparing them to the Uncle Henry knives. Most of the Old Timers were made with carbon steel and all of the later Uncle Henry's were made of stainless steel. I think the stainless steel they used in the Uncle Henry's probably is harder than the carbon steel which would make it more difficult for people to sharpen. I'm not sure on the edge retention. One would think the harder steel would hold a better edge then the softer carbon steel. But if the person is having trouble sharpening the stainless steel knives, it might be that they are sharpening the stainless for the same amount of time that they would normally sharpen a carbon steel knife not realizing that they have not developed as good an edge in the same amount of time because of the hardness of the steel.


As far as crock sticks go I still have them but it's been years since I've I've used them as my primary knife sharpening system. I have single ceramic sticks I use in my shop to touch up the edge on a knife that I'm working on or even one that I'm using as an EDC. They're very effective and I like the fact that they can roll over the edge back where you can cut with it as well as removing metal. In my opinion they're one of the most versatile and simplest systems to use.

[kootenay joe]

I have the Spyderco system. If you need to remove any amount of steel you need to pay extra for the diamond rods. The ceramic rods supplied are good for edge 'touch up'.
kj

[kootenay joe]

I am surprised to hear that older knives might have better steel in the blades. I had assumed that steel manufacturers continually worked on improving the steel composition and improving the production methods.
Is 1095 steel made now the identical composition to 1095 made 50 years ago ?
Did knife manufacturers change the tempering process to save time and this resulted in a blade that did not perform quite as well ?
I wonder how a GEC knife (current production) with 1095 steel blades might compare to a 1095 Old Timer or Schrade-Walden knife with 1095 blades ?
kj

[Colonel26]

I think some of the newer non stainless steels (late 70’s to now) are softer than they used to be. That should make them easier to sharpen, but they won’t hold an edge as long. I know for me, newer CASE knives won’t hold an edge like my old XX CASE knives will. Part of that may be that many of my newer ones are hollow ground and the older ones were flat ground. My older Camillus knives, 70’s and earlier will hold an edge equal to any CASE XX.

IMO no one had better steel than the old Western knives. Those would hold an edge forever. I’ve been told most of the old knife makers used basically the same steel but each had a trick or two in their treatment protocols. I’ve heard/read that Weatern had a cryo treatment of sorts that they used. They did something right.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

I wonder how a GEC knife (current production) with 1095 steel blades might compare to a 1095 Old Timer or Schrade-Walden knife with 1095 blades ?
kj

In a controlled edge retention test we may see a difference, but in real world use (which is a very random basis for edge retention because of the variance in things being cut) any differences between schrade and gec 1095 would likely not be discernible.

[orvet]

I am surprised to hear that older knives might have better steel in the blades. I had assumed that steel manufacturers continually worked on improving the steel composition and improving the production methods.
Is 1095 steel made now the identical composition to 1095 made 50 years ago ?
Did knife manufacturers change the tempering process to save time and this resulted in a blade that did not perform quite as well ?
I wonder how a GEC knife (current production) with 1095 steel blades might compare to a 1095 Old Timer or Schrade-Walden knife with 1095 blades ?
kj

I am an absolute agreement with Wade and his opinion of Western knives.
I believe these carbon steel in the Western knives made prior to 1984, (when they were purchased by Coleman), is equal to or better than any carbon steel made in the US or Europe in any time period to date! I don't know what it is that makes them so good, whether it's the steel formula or their heat treating (I suspect the latter), but their knives are super easily to sharpen and seem to hold an edge better and longer than any other carbon steel I am aware of.

KJ; as to your question of how would the 1095 steel in current production GEC knives compare with the 1095 steel in the the Old Timers or Schrade Walden knives?
In my experience, after using several different GEC knives with 1095 steel blades for normal cutting tasks in my shop, I found myself needing to sharpen the GEC knives two or three times more often than my Schrade or Schrade Walden knives that I also carry in the shop.

[kootenay joe]

Quote" "In my experience, after using several different GEC knives with 1095 steel blades for normal cutting tasks in my shop, I found myself needing to sharpen the GEC knives two or three times more often than my Schrade or Schrade Walden knives that I also carry in the shop."
The vast majority of GEC knives go directly into collections. Very few get used. I am a good example: about 40-50 GEC made knives and i have only ever used one and for just a few 'cuts'.
There is more online raving about how great GEC knives are than any other brand, by far. But if the steel cannot hold an edge, GEC knives should be towards the bottom of any ranking of knife quality.
Knives are tools for cutting. If they cannot cut well they are just another pretty object, like a black felt painting of Elvis.
We REALLY need someone who is good at sharpening to do cutting tests with at least 5 different pattern GEC knives to confirm & document Dale's experience. The results should be posted for all to read and also sent to Bill Howard, owner of GEC. He might not know that his blades are soft pudgy wimps, if that is what the testing shows.
kj

[Quick Steel]

kj, I think your suggestion is a good one. It would certainly be interesting.

[kootenay joe]

The knives i do have experience using are Rough Rider. The blades are a stainless steel, likely made in China. I am continually amazed by how sharp RR blades are and how long they hold their very sharp edges. I fully field dressed a whitetail deer, including amputating all 4 lower limbs with an RR pocket knife. It was the slickest easiest field dressing i ever did and the blade still shaved arm hair when i was finished.
Based on Dale's experience with GEC it is quite possible that a $15 RR knife would 'out cut' a $150 GEC knife. This is something we GEC fans do not want to even think about.
kj

[KnifeSlinger#81]

KJ; as to your question of how would the 1095 steel in current production GEC knives compare with the 1095 steel in the the Old Timers or Schrade Walden knives?
In my experience, after using several different GEC knives with 1095 steel blades for normal cutting tasks in my shop, I found myself needing to sharpen the GEC knives two or three times more often than my Schrade or Schrade Walden knives that I also carry in the shop.

Needing to sharpen the gec's two or three times more often than the schrades is more likely to be variance in things you are cutting and/or how you are sharpening. You could have a situation where one knife could be thicker than the other in its edge angle or main grind, so it takes more force to cut with and therefore increases pressure on the edge and damages it more than the knife that is thinner and takes less force to do the same cut. There are many factors as to why you are coming to that conclusion and the differences between the steel itself is one of the least likely reasons for the difference you are seeing. I have a hard time believing the schrade 1095 is two or three times better than gec's. The steel from both makers is very similar.

The vast majority of GEC knives go directly into collections. Very few get used. I am a good example: about 40-50 GEC made knives and i have only ever used one and for just a few 'cuts'.
There is more online raving about how great GEC knives are than any other brand, by far. But if the steel cannot hold an edge, GEC knives should be towards the bottom of any ranking of knife quality.
Knives are tools for cutting. If they cannot cut well they are just another pretty object, like a black felt painting of Elvis.
We REALLY need someone who is good at sharpening to do cutting tests with at least 5 different pattern GEC knives to confirm & document Dale's experience. The results should be posted for all to read and also sent to Bill Howard, owner of GEC. He might not know that his blades are soft pudgy wimps, if that is what the testing shows.
kj

I do not agree with that assessment. Yes there are many gec's that never get used but there are also many that are used as well. Despite their popularity for collecting they are made to be functional tools, and they very much are functional. I have used gec's extensively and have around 20 in carbon steel that are users. Their steel is good and I don't notice it being better or worse than other 1095 I have used.

[kootenay joe]

Quote Paul: "Their steel is good and I don't notice it being better or worse than other 1095 I have used."
That is just what i have always assumed and i was very surprised to hear otherwise. However Dale is a knife 'mechanic' and has a lot of knife experience so i cannot dismiss what he says. Things like differences in thickness, he almost certainly has taken into account ?
We need a well designed test that compares edge holding of GEC knives to edge holding of USA Old Timer and perhaps a Schrade-Walden knife as well. It needs to be done by someone with very good sharpening skills so that all knives start the test with equally sharpened blades.
kj

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Roland, there are people who are very good at testing and comparing knives and steels. I'm not one of them but I read forums and watch youtube videos by some of those people and find such content rather interesting. I have learned a lot about steels, sharpening and edge retention from it. Believe it or not there is a great deal of science behind these things; however you don't have to delve into that just to get a knife sharp and use it.

I have wanted to do some of my own experimenting, though on a fairly basic level. I will get some things together and figure out how to go about such a test. I know that I willl need a huge amount of cutting media.

[kootenay joe]

Paul, a comparison of cutting ability/edge holding of GEC vs. older USA Schrade carbon steel knives would be a significant contribution to all of us here. It does not have to be complex or lengthy. What you are looking for is not minor differences, but major ones: do they edge hold more or less the same ? or, is there a major difference, such as described by 'Orvet' ?
For example: start with all blades sharpened to be able to slice paper, then do 10-20 cuts through 1/2" or thicker rope, and then again try to slice paper. You might find one looses the ability to cleanly slice paper after say, 5 rope cuts, whereas the other can still slice paper after 10 cuts.
I realize blade geometry affects how a knife cuts through different materials but even such a simple test would show if there is a major difference in edge holding.
The other test i would really like to see is GEC vs. Rough Rider. I will supply the RR knives if anyone wants to do this. Tester gets to keep the RR knives.
kj