Case XX - Herkenrath?

The W.R. Case & Sons Cutlery Company has a very rich history that began in 1889 when William Russell (“W.R.”), Jean, John, and Andrew Case began fashioning their knives and selling them along a wagon trail in upstate New York. The company has produced countless treasures and it continues to do so as one of the most collected brands in the world.
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chaz
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Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by chaz »

First post- brought here so ya'll can disprove it with data. Please don't just quote another forum post that says it's a modern parker, or fake, or argue single points. Show a picture, data, detail of embossing compared to another- something legit to either prove or disprove the theory.
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The following is MY OPINION-
This is a beautiful knife marked CASE XX but was NOT MADE by W.R. Case and Sons!
Most Gentlemen’s knifes (also known as Pen, Lobster, Advertisement, and Grooming knives) were made in Solingren Germany and many have extraordinarily beautiful detailed embossing. The fine details within the pattern were often similar and often copied and duplicated, but the key to dating any specific one lies within those details.
The majority of these knives were produced in the 1920’s – 1990’s by different makers in Soligren Germany. Some of these makers were: Ruderer Broch nachf., Wilhelm Wagner, Justus Bierhoff, Herkenrath and Pfeilring.
It is my belief that this knife was made by Herkenrath. In the late 30's and early 40's Herkenrath made many samples with different company logos in order for salesmen to go acquire those companies’ business. I believe it was made by Herkenrath- for the purpose of presenting TO W. R. Case or his son, in order to secure his business in manufacturing knives for them. ---They DID NOT secure his business- therefore very few were made.

WHY do I believe this:
The precise detail within the embossing and blade stamps exactly fit 3 other samples made in the late 1930's by Herkenrath for; Pontiac Automobiles, the first "Bayer" advertiser, and J. Aron and Company (New Orleans). The intricate patterns of the many hundreds of versions of gentlemen's knives are hard to replicate- even with fresh molds or fresh stamps!
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Case DID MAKE a version of a Gentleman's knife - The CASE XX T3105 SS. This is NOT THAT KNIFE.

Case originally manufactured the T3105 in the 1950's, then did another run in 1973 using the same blades and design. However, the 1973 run had little dots on the borders running around the inlayed color. The original run from the 50's does not have these dots on the borders.
They are often called “Toledo Scales” knives. The Toledo Scale reference has nothing to do with the company that manufactured scales to measure weight. It has to do with the fancy decoration on the knife scales which is reminiscent of Moorish design which might be found in old Toledo in Spain.
The later version of the T3105 SS was assembled in 1973 using newer handles with original older CASE XX era blades that were stamped out in the 1950s. There were approximately 2,000 of these made in 1973.
BOTH Case made versions have blades stamped CASE XX over STAINLESS.
BOTH the 50’s and 70’s versions had a 3-rivet pattern
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Neither- had the Block "CASE XX" centered on one side of the handle.

In addition, the block CASE XX logo ((and)) the blade stamp W. R. CASE & SONS were only used ((together)) randomly between 1914- into the mid 1940's. - This combination is not used again.

The rivet pattern also rules out most versions- especially CASE MADE T3105 knives. Herkenrath had 4 evenly squared. Case’s versions have 3.
What is most unique is that the second stamp on main blade says “Bradford Germany” There is no Bradford Germany- W. R. Case’s office was Bradford, PA. (Case knives made in Germany were most often marked "Soligren Gemany".

In Summary, Herkenrath made a sample featuring Case’s logos in the late 1930’s- but Case didn’t buy it... Case did like the knife and replicated a version of it, with different scroll pattern, stamps, rivets, in the 1950’s and again in the 1970’s. This is NOT a CASE knife- it’s the original one he copied…
I only know of two in existence, and the other was thought to be a “salesman’s sample”. Surely there are more -But you may be hard pressed to find a photo of one on the internet that was not posted by me…
Measures: Blades Closed 3-1/4". Almost 8" open from the larger blade to the file blade. 7" from open large blade to open small blade. Larger blade measures almost 2-3/8". The smaller blade measures 1-1/2". File Blade almost 2-3/8"
This one has been in my collection for more than 30 years.

What do ya'll think???
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case-xx-stainless-t3105-ss-toledo_1973 dots.jpg
Pontiac by hekenrath.jpg
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Steve Warden
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by Steve Warden »

I know nothing about the knife, but WELCOME!!
I'm sure folks more intelligent than I will be along soon
Take care and God bless,

Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000

But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
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Beavertail
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by Beavertail »

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... 1839555079
Found this on the web.
Hope this helps. ::handshake::
Tim
chaz
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by chaz »

Thanks for reply Beavertail -
The 1990's Parker version is one I've read - but it's always "I heard that..." I have seen a DIFFERENT version - but not this one- in any catalog or ad.
Of the few I've seen since, with the CASE XX side stamp, and same blade marks, nothing takes the story beyond a copy/paste forum post that starts "I heard"...

Just looking for something definitive...
Thanks again.
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Welcome to AAPK. Interesting first post.

The 105 aka “Toledo Scale” pattern isn’t one I collect so haven’t spent much time researching it In depth, but I may have one of the newer versions around here somewhere - I did at one time anyway. Interesting opinion about the knife you posted being made as a sample for Case, and specifically as a gift for a Case family member. I suppose that’s possible but without any provenance to support it, it’s just conjecture. I’d be interested to learn what led you to those conclusions though. Limiting responses to documentation - no “I heard” cuts both ways. (No offense intended but you asked for comments, and that’s mine).

While I agree most knives having “Toledo Scale” handle covers were made in Germany, I don’t agree that “most gentleman’s knives ...... were made in Solingen“. Many gentleman’s pen, grooming, lobster, and “grooming” knives were made in France, England, Italy, and by many U.S. cutleries as well as Germany. Maybe the intent of the statement’s context was limited to the “Toledo Scale” style gentleman’s knives. ::shrug::

Interesting knife in any case. Just more conjecture - not saying the knife is a fake but there are so many counterfeit Case knives out there that it makes any knowledgeable collector suspicious. Thanks for showing it. It will be interesting to see other opinions.

Ken
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knifeaholic
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by knifeaholic »

In addition, the block CASE XX logo ((and)) the blade stamp W. R. CASE & SONS were only used ((together)) randomly between 1914- into the mid 1940's. - This combination is not used again.

Wow that is news to me. What other Case knives can you document from the 1930's to 40's that used the W. R. CASE & SONS blade stamp, with or without the CASE XX stamp? Can you show some examples?
chaz
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by chaz »

Mumbleypeg and Knifeaholic,
Thanks for the comments. Let me try to answer.
Scales were made all over but I did mean most- a solid 60-70% of all Scales knives I've seen were made in Germany, and most of those in Solingren.

As for dating, I meant the combination of stamp on any part of the knife...
Much of the history of logos is documented here on this site- https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/co ... ification/
But- this fails to capture that both Pre-1920 (1914-1920) they were often stamped with XX and XX TESTED along with many maker names with no logo. Such as (just a few): WR Case and Son(No s), W. R. CASE & SONS, W. R. CASE & SONS CUTLERY CO., CASE BRADFORD PA., BRADFORD, PA, CASE’S BRADFORD PA, CASE XX, and CASE XX TESTED- The stamp variations finally narrowed down in the 1940’s, thank goodness...

Now- Russell Case was a salesman, broker, and traveler – part of the reason for the above OP is that I read somewhere (book) that he personally travelled to Germany to check out makers before contracting the 1920’s runs. This may also explain the R. CASE stamps that are contested to be forged or broken stamp- It might be that Russ told them he wanted just R. CASE.

At this time, Solingren was a manufacturing mecca – Case Knives were made in Solingren, and many makers competed for business -and it was common for all of these makers to make “AD” knifes. That is why you find so many variations of “Toledo Scales" type knives with so many versions of company logo’s. (literally hundreds!) Many of these are very rare -being just a couple known- It is only logical to think that one of the top makers (Herkenrath) in Solingren (where Case knives were made at the time) would have made a play for his business.
But that IS all just conjecture.
Knifeaholic - give me some time to take some pics...
chaz
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by chaz »

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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

chaz wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:34 am As for dating, I meant the combination of stamp on any part of the knife...
Much of the history of logos is documented here on this site ........
But- this fails to capture that both Pre-1920 (1914-1920) they were often stamped with XX and XX TESTED along with many maker names with no logo. Such as (just a few): WR Case and Son(No s), W. R. CASE & SONS, W. R. CASE & SONS CUTLERY CO., CASE BRADFORD PA., BRADFORD, PA, CASE’S BRADFORD PA, CASE XX, and CASE XX TESTED- The stamp variations finally narrowed down in the 1940’s, thank goodness...
Not sure what that has to do with the OP knife, since it’s not marked Tested or XX that I can see. However just to clarify your statement above: in my experience you will not find knives marked W. R. Case & Sons (or the various versions thereof) combined with “XX”, “Tested”, or “Tested XX” (modern Case Classics excepted). There are no “combination” of those markings because W.R. Case and Sons did not own the rights to use them. Until about 1914 the trademarks “Tested”, “XX”, “Case XX Tested” and derivatives thereof were the property of Case Brothers Cutlery, which was a predecessor to, and then a competitor of, W. R. Case (and the various versions of that company you listed), the company started by Russell Case and named for his father.

That changed in about 1914 when Case Brothers went out of business due to financial difficulties. As part of the bankruptcy sale W. R. Case & Sons bought the rights to the Tested XX trademarks. At that time they ceased using the W.R. Case stamp. It was changed to Case Bradford, Case, or Case’s Tested, and knives with those stamps combined with the various Tested XX markings will be seen. I notice you have posted a copy of Case stampings from Sargent’s, so you can find the details there. Just my opinion guided by experience, I wouldn’t put too much stock in that or any other source of dates for older Case stamps. They’re for the most part approximations, and flat out wrong in a few cases.
- It is only logical to think that one of the top makers (Herkenrath) in Solingren (where Case knives were made at the time) would have made a play for his business.
I’ve personally seen no evidence older Case knives from the time period you’ve referenced were being made in Germany. Maybe there are a few (there’s a lot I haven’t seen :lol: ) but if so they’re certainly not common. I seem to recall it was about that time that we weren’t getting on too well with the Germans. ::hmm::

I also notice you’ve referred knifeaholic to Collecting Case Knives by Steve Pfeiffer. I’m sure knifeaholic appreciates that, since he is Steve Pfeiffer. One and the same.

Interesting theory about the origin of your knife. Although I suppose it’s plausible I have to say it’s just that - a theory.

Ken
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1967redrider
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by 1967redrider »

Interesting thread, ::welcome:: to AAPK!
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by jmh58 »

Got my popcorn and a comfy chair.. :wink:
John :D
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

It’s difficult having a discussion about a knife on a forum. To many it may appear to be an argument, when in fact it’s an exchange of information and opinion. I’d much prefer to be discussing this in person over a cup of coffee (or other beverage). The OP, chaz clearly stated he’s giving his opinion and requested facts to disprove it. We’re discussing some of the “facts” he has cited to support his theory. That’s all.

Hopefully we’ll all learn something, and part as friends. ::handshake::

Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.

If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.

When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.

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chaz
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Re: Case XX - Herkenrath?

Post by chaz »

That is exactly right Mumbleypeg, I'm just wanting to get as close to knowing as I can.

It's hard to type a big thought fast but also brief, when one missed word or error can change the content and context of a whole post. Especially when discussing technical details with knowledgeable folks...

BUT - How cool is it that I referred a book to the author - I think it's awesome!

Anyway, the marks, names and combinations are difficult to follow and if there is error in anything I stated, I hope it is only omission. By the combination, where I lost Knifeaholic, I meant that the Block CASE (over) XX and the W. R. CASE & SONS logo used again BY CASE) It was used on this knife above- but not by case...

The 3rd image on 4th line - and 1st image of 6th line of the Logo pic above are similar - I have to assume maybe Herkenrath did not have a flowing C and did have a block C - why engrave a new stamp for samples? (oooh - maybe he started the 40's logo... that would be wild.)

Again, all discussion is good-
If you have a pic of an AD or catalog of the 90's version Post it (NOT THE 50's or 70's version!)
If you have data of Russell traveling to Germany- post it.
If you made them as fakes and have the blanks - post it.
If you have any info that will get me to any of the 3 possible ends - please post.
(((It's the never seen 90's version ,,, its a fake ,,, it's a Herkenrath sample )))
But don't just toss negative 2nd hand "I heard" - what we post here becomes internet record- the shadiest of statement today, low and behold becomes fact just around the corner...

Appreciate all comments!
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