Vault knives?

[Forcedoutage]

I believe these three to be vault knives with European stag. The metal all looks good, but the handles all resemble and all differ from the knives I know are true first gen. What do you guys think? They are high quality knives, but if my hunch is correct, I'll sell them as the vault knives they are vs keeping them.

[philco]

Please pardon my ignorance when it comes to Bull Dog knives, but could you please enlighten me to what a "vault knife" is ?

[jerryd6818]

Please pardon my ignorance when it comes to Bull Dog knives, but could you please enlighten me to what a "vault knife" is ?

+1

[Forcedoutage]

There are some bulldog knives out there which were found in Mr. Gronauers vault after his death. I believe this vault was at the olbertz factory where these knives were made. Jim parker sold several of thes knives with certificates of authenticity. Sold them all first generation knives that had sat in this vault since production. My congress has one of the COA's. When you put them beside the other first gen knives you will notice the stag is european vs sambar. Also the bolsters are thicker on the new knives. They also seem to have a lot of white around the bolsters and edges. The blades and tang marks are correct though.

That being said, I believe the knives were parts and then put together by the factory. I've been told this is around the 2000 period. I have some german eye trappers made this same time and they are identical in bolster thickness and handles material to the bulldog. I'll get a pic and post.

The issue I am running into is buying them as first generation. Just costs me more for lessons learned Lol. Lots of people sell them as such. I'm not saying they are dishonest, they might just believe they are indeed first gen. They are solid quality knives. Similar to the eye brand of that time. They just aren't true first gen knives that I am trying to collect. Sitting there is $390 worth of education.

[philco]

Thank you for explaining that to me.

[Forcedoutage]

Here is one of my eye brand from around 2000 next to the bulldog. The main difference besides the stag not being sambar is the fact that the bolsters are the same size and thickness as the eye brand. The true first gen have thinner bolsters and the bottom bolster is not as short. You can see the eye brand bolsters are identical to this bulldog. Thickness, size everything.

[olderdogs1]

What Forcedoutrage is saying is correct as far as the story and COA's that came from Jim Parker. Some of us doubt that these unfinished knives ever came out of the vault. More likely that as the example of the German eye you posted that they were built from the ground up. As noted, the frames on these knives are wider which to me would not be the case if they already existed as partially built knives.
Jim Parker was a crafty marketer and was a master if the "Warehouse Find". All speculation if course.

Thank for posting the pictures.

Tom

[Willy]

Now Im worried about some of my 1st Generations... Heres the card that came with vault knives.... or some of them

[Willy]

I believe these three to be vault knives with European stag. The metal all looks good, but the handles all resemble and all differ from the knives I know are true first gen.

what do you think about these knives? 1st gen or vault?

[olderdogs1]

Willy,
It is really hard to look at pictures and make a determination in my opinion. I personally believe that about the only way to be fairly certain is to compare them with knives you know to be authentic.
In volume 1 of the Pocket Knife Trader's Guide that Jim Parker authored none of the bulldog knives pictured had stag that had the creamy white ends or bore any resemblance to European Stag. Fast forward to the more recent volumes and the pictures show the stag knives with the white close to the bolsters.
I attend several knife shows a year and the dealers sometimes have the bulldogs separated and know the difference between the old ones and the one's assembled later. They of course have the advantage of looking at them in person and remember when the newer ones came along.

Tom

[Willy]

Willy,
It is really hard to look at pictures and make a determination in my opinion. I personally believe that about the only way to be fairly certain is to compare them with knives you know to be authentic.
In volume 1 of the Pocket Knife Trader's Guide that Jim Parker authored none of the bulldog knives pictured had stag that had the creamy white ends or bore any resemblance to European Stag.

The "knives you know to be authentic" is the hard part... I started collecting knives way back in the old days but really got into it when the Case Classics came out in 1989.. Ive told this story several times here on AAPK. When I first started buying Classics I bought by telephone auctions... This was before the internet stuff... I bought the rarest Classics that were available... And in that same Price guide #1 you mention above has all of the Case Classics available listed.. I have a 1 of 12 knife from 1990.
Fast forwards a few years.. Suddenly the Case Classic market is filled with one of a kind ivory, pearl, coral, mastodon ivory ect... Ultra rare one of a kind knives some of them dated 1990.. So why wern't these knives listed in the first price guide? Simple answer is they weren't around at that time.. They were knives that were re handled and sold as prototypes and one of a kinds at a later date.. This statement tends to irritate some people.. But I have CONCLUDED that its not really when a knife is made...Its what the guy who writes/prints the price book says the knife is thats important.. Here on AAPK you can buy a 1990 dated Mastodon Ivory Saddlehorn for a bargain price of $1350 ...Why isn't that knife listed in the original price guide? Back in 1989/90 I bought the only Saddlehorn available in the Case Classic line.. Its the XXX Green jigged bone... I sure would of bought a Mastodon Ivory knife if I could of .. So anyway using the Classic's Im making a comparison to Bulldog.. Is the Case Classic that was added to the collection later worth less than if it was made early on? The rarest one's are now listed in price guides and accepted.... Is a Bulldog knife using the same parts as knives made in 1980 being assembled by the same master cutlers who assembled the originals worth less than one made 10 years earlier... Same parts ... same cutlers as before ... same factory .. same work bench?? I don't know I could be babbling.. . .. But its a interesting topic

damn that was a lot of typing using only a couple fingers ..

[olderdogs1]

I agree, it is interesting. On the case classics I heard that the ones that gassed were rehandled with exotic handles and stamped prototype but like you say, people still ask the high prices regardless.
I personally prefer the older stag bulldogs to the newer production models but a collector can collect whatever they prefer of course.
I read on blade forums that Jim Parker acquired the rights to almost 50 knife brands not being used by filing intent to use the names. I do think that the newer stag knives hurt the value of the old original bulldogs either way. Maybe that is why the Case Classic market has went soft as well. As you said, those prototypes were not there in 1990 that have recently appeared.
I go to a lot of knife auctions where someone has passed on and their lifetime collections are being sold. Almost always there are some fake Case knives in the mix so it is hard to blame Jim Parker for all of it, and I don't.
That's why I try to learn as much as I can from the knowledgable folks on this site.

[Willy]

I agree, it is interesting. On the case classics I heard that the ones that gassed were rehandled with exotic handles and stamped prototype but like you say, people still ask the high prices regardless.

Gassing wasn't always the case.. If you know the Case numbering system you will know the first number is the handle material.. The number 6 means it is bone .. The knife on the right is mine jigged green bone... The one on the left is Mastodon Ivory with the same number... Which means this was a bone handled knife at one time....
Enough about the Classics... Back to Bulldog.. Same person owned both of them...

[Willy]

I found some guaranteed 1st generation knives... Club knives so they had to be issued back then..

[olderdogs1]

Those are beauties, Willy. The Old Dominion knives always had great stag. they were always some of my favorites. Thanks for posting them.

Tom

[Willy]

I like the old stag also. But in all fairness Euro stag makes a good looking knife too... I wouldn't throw a knife away handled in either stags..

What I also liked about Bulldogs was the blade reverse etch.. The way the nail pulls are made and fit of the blades. They always have a good strong back spring... .. I don't own any new Bulldogs but I have some of the standing dog and two dog head ...

a few stag knives to end it I make no claim of the pedigree....Just nice stag