how to know a WWII KABAR?

The KA-BAR brand originated as a trademark of the Tidioute Cutlery Company. Tidioute was later taken over & renamed the Union Cutlery Company which continued making the brand until Union eventually adopted it as the company name in 1952. Cutco Corporation later acquired the company in 1996.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by PACKLEAD3R »

I forgot to share this view the other day.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Mossdancer »

First you need to do some homework. If any are alive check with other family members Has there been a family tree established for your heritage, if not you might visit with the Utah Mormon researchers. Be wary of how you spend your money. Try to find out when, the branch and where your uncle served and start building his history. If nothing to enhance is found it is worth what it appraises at with any adders you can prove. All said and done it is worth more for its intrinsic value to you.
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psFor example I was at a senior luncheon when and old fellow beside start talking about his BAR that was a bring back from Normandy. He landed on DDay on the 5th or 6th wave on one of the Beaches and made it out alive which is a pretty good enhancer. He was carrying it as the squad automatic rifle. I have no further info other that his wife passed a couple of days after the lunch.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by PACKLEAD3R »

I'm not looking to sell it. I was purely curious. I'm certain he didn't serve in WWll. I'm pretty sure his service was during or around the time of Korea. He just recently passed so I can't ask him where he acquired it.
Thank you just the same. That's its some excellent information to know.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by steve99f »

I'm bookmarking this page just in case I get bitten by this particular bug. Just WOW! ::tu::
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by PACKLEAD3R »

I 2nd that motion!
Stay fluid and ever changing... "I heard it in some movie, sometime, someday. Shucks it's hard to say" ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu::

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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by DanceswithGlock »

Hello everybody. Thanks to you all who have provided so much excellent info on these KA-BARs. You have already answered many Questions I had regarding the KA-BAR I have acquired this last month. I would like to post some pictures to confirm what I believe I've learned. The only Question I'm still not sure is if this is a Union cutlery or a Camillus?
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

If it says KABAR on it, that is a Union Cutlery 1219C2/USN-MK2.

The other WW2 versions would have Camillus, PAL, or Robeson-Suredge.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by DanceswithGlock »

Thank you much for confirming that. Great forum here ::tu::
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Tom47 »

I recieved this Ka-bar from my father years ago. I believe he recieved it from one of his brothers who were in WWII. I have been looking at various web sites but, haven't been able to find any that describe the exact markings on this one. The only markings are those on the guard. Does anyone have any information on this particular one.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

That one is an early guard stamped model. When the PTB mistakenly decided that the ricasso stamping was causing blades to break, they shifted the stamps to the guard.

The first runs of Kabar 1219C2s and MK2 USN knives after the shift had what is now called "straight-line Kabar" stamps. The word KABAR is in a line and the other side only had USMC or USN. Subsequent runs all the way to the end of the war had KABAR stamped as KA over BAR and MK2 over USN. The reason for the change is unknown. It is assumed that the straight line knives were early in the guard stamp process simply because there are so few of them.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Mossdancer »

In this case what would the rectangular tang through the pommel indicate if anything?
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

That's simply indicative of the second change order made on the 1219C2/USN-MK2 - a shift from round/threaded/welded pommel to non-threaded pommel.

The first knives delivered, by Camillus, (shipped in late January 1943 and being delivered in February 1943), followed the original specs of the 3/8" pommel being threaded onto the tang and then held in place with a split nut.

This construction method was quickly dumped, with the change being to weld/peen the pommel in place after being threaded on. The first Kabar order shipped in April 1943 with this construction method.

The next change was to change from threading the tang and pommel before welding/peening, and just stamp out the blanks with rectangular pommel tang (which they were already doing) and just put the pommel on and "zap". This eliminated the time spent rounding/threading the tang and threading the pommel. BOOM - more knives out the door in the same amount of time. Can't remember the exact date of change but IIRC, it was around July or August 1943.

This knife shows that the shift of the stamps to the guard PRECEDED the next cost reduction change - shifting from a 3/8" peened/welded pommel to a 1/4" pinned pommel. Again IIRC, the shift to guard stampings was around November or December 1943.

There are examples of both guard and ricasso stamps on knives, which would be a case of pre-stamped blades being assembled with the new pre-stamped guards. Some assembly lines would likely have run "old" unstamped guards before they ran out of stamped blades.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Mossdancer »

Sounds as though the company whose assemblers had the longest arms enabling them to reach the bottom of the blade barrel. If they could use up the current run of blades the anomalies would not have happened. Aint hindsight great.

Thank You for the great explanations. The detail was interesting.

I just fell into the most perfect Mark One Colonial I have found yet. Black synthetic pommel with very fine knurling on each side under knob, same for guard, USN on one side with MARK I over COLONIAL on other. The bold and smaller lettering is I think all correct. I believe the USN over MK 1 with NORD -- 4728 over BM Co _ vP on back of fibre sheath With drain in bottom is original.
Just took another look at handle. It is a metal probably aluminum and painted black. Seems the handle was molded(poured) in two pieces and installed onto tang. The front and back seams are viewable. I will attempt some photos as time and weather cooperates. This is nice a top snap sheath with a belt fitting only.
moss
NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, I JUST DID SOME GOOGLE RESEARCH AND I BELIEVE THE KNIFE TO BE EITHER A REMAKE OR A REMADE HANDLE HAS BEEN APPLIED IN ANY CASE. I THINK THE SHEATH IS ORIGINAL. VERY SAD BUT NO SCHOLARSHIPS FROM THE SALE OF THIS ONE. KNIFE ALONE IS PROBABLY $40-45 BUCKS. SHEATH MAY BE MORE THAN THAT BY ITSELF.
moss (later in the evening).

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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Tom47 »

Thanks for the information. I had heard talk of a straight-line ka-bar but didn't realize what that meant.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by alex1959 »

Hi everybody!yesterday I picked up KA BAR knive on garage sell.till yesterday I did not know about this company and their knives.I have read a lot .looked pictures..and now a have few questions- about this one -is it real one or fake? What year it was made?The blade is different from other KABAR...Thanks in advance.Alex
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

That's a Kabar "Commando" knife. Marketed with that name. Came with either a bright or a blued blade.

Falls into the "Hunting Knives, 6 inch" category. Supposedly available during the last year of WW2, either PX sales or a 6" hunting knife contract sale. Sold post WW2 as well.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by alex1959 »

Thanks ! I am so surprised! I found already on Google.So interesting! I picked this knife on garage sale for 7.5$ And also .. what is the value of this one?Thanks .
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by stearmanguy »

Hi guys can someone tell me about this one ? It has a Boyt 42 sheath I have only been able to find boyt 43 on the internet any idea of value ?
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by Gunsil »

zzyzzogeton wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:57 am That's a Kabar "Commando" knife. Marketed with that name. Came with either a bright or a blued blade.

Falls into the "Hunting Knives, 6 inch" category. Supposedly available during the last year of WW2, either PX sales or a 6" hunting knife contract sale. Sold post WW2 as well.
Actually, the "commando" from KA-BAR came either with a fullered saber ground chrome plated blade or a flat ground parkerized blade as alex shows. Some KA-BAR MK 1s and MK2s had blued blades but not the 6" commando model.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Parkerized. ::doh:: Yeah I knew that. I guess I had an instance of OFD or CRS. ::facepalm::
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by 1967redrider »

There is a tag on this one, dated 1942. What says the experts? I don't think there are any guard stamps.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by eveled »

Mossdancer wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:35 am
I just fell into the most perfect Mark One Colonial I have found yet. Black synthetic pommel with very fine knurling on each side under knob, same for guard, USN on one side with MARK I over COLONIAL on other. The bold and smaller lettering is I think all correct. I believe the USN over MK 1 with NORD -- 4728 over BM Co _ vP on back of fibre sheath With drain in bottom is original.
Just took another look at handle. It is a metal probably aluminum and painted black. Seems the handle was molded(poured) in two pieces and installed onto tang. The front and back seams are viewable. I will attempt some photos as time and weather cooperates. This is nice a top snap sheath with a belt fitting only.
moss
NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, I JUST DID SOME GOOGLE RESEARCH AND I BELIEVE THE KNIFE TO BE EITHER A REMAKE OR A REMADE HANDLE HAS BEEN APPLIED IN ANY CASE. I THINK THE SHEATH IS ORIGINAL. VERY SAD BUT NO SCHOLARSHIPS FROM THE SALE OF THIS ONE. KNIFE ALONE IS PROBABLY $40-45 BUCKS. SHEATH MAY BE MORE THAN THAT BY ITSELF.
moss (later in the evening).

* *
Could be an original with a replacement handle. Colonial Mk1 deck knives AFAIK all had black rubber molded handles no metal at all not even the pommels. The new Colonial company reproduces them now. I believe the blades are marked on the opposite sides as the originals.

I’ve had a fascination and love of the USN MK1’s for a very long time. I’d like to see pictures of yours.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

1967redrider wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:23 am There is a tag on this one, dated 1942. What says the experts? I don't think there are any guard stamps.
What is the thickness of the pommel?

From the picture (on my monitor), it looks like the pommel is both "thick" (3/8") and pinned.

Is it pinned and thick? If so, it is a post-1976 reproduction as true WW2 thick pommels were never pinned. Only the "thin" (1/4") pommels were pinned.

Could we get a picture of the butt of the pommel and of the stamp straight down? Also, a picture of the pile side stamp straight down as well?
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by 1967redrider »

Right on 1/4" and was supposed to go to this gentleman. I tried looking up his name with no success.
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Re: how to know a WWII KABAR?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

This one is a real WW2 1219C2, made after the change order changing the pommel thickness from 3/8"-peened to 1/4"-pinned (IIRC, some time in the latter part of 1943) but not later than the middle of 1944, when the change order came out shifting the stamps from the ricassos to the guard.
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