Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

The KA-BAR brand originated as a trademark of the Tidioute Cutlery Company. Tidioute was later taken over & renamed the Union Cutlery Company which continued making the brand until Union eventually adopted it as the company name in 1952. Cutco Corporation later acquired the company in 1996.
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buck2
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Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by buck2 »

Did KA-BAR make their own pocket knives (such as 1081, 1184, 1100, etc.) or did they sub these out to other company's?
thefarside
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by thefarside »

Go to the KA BAR web site and at the bottom of the page they have a History of KA BAR which will tell you all about the brand. I thought I knew a lot about Union/KA BAR and this covered much detail. Enjoy the read.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by eveled »

It’s hard to nail down an answer. The short version as I understand it. KA-BAR has always been owned by Union Cutco. But Union Cutco has been sold a bunch of times.

At times Union Cutco made pocket knives under the KA-BAR name. At other times they probably contracted other companies to make them. Which was common back then.

It’s clear as mud no matter how long you look into it.

One thing for certain the current KA-BAR has almost zero kknowledge of its own past products.

Ssome KA-BAR pocket knives are very high quality some are not at the same level.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Gunsil »

Union Cut Co made it's own knives. They changed their company name to KA-BAR Inc in 1952. In 1966 the company was sold to Cole National and headquarters moved from Olean, NY to Cleveland, OH. Some time around 1975, possibly 1976 the factory in Olean closed and their pocket knives were made elsewhere. I know that some were made by Schrade after 1976, but do not know if some were made by other companies. The knives made for the KA-BAR Collectors Club were made by Queen in Titusville, PA (1976-1995) and are actually better quality knives than those made by Schrade. Ed is correct that quality changed with time. WW2 was the first time quality went down for civilian pocket knives and never returned to pre-war quality. Ed is also correct that the present company which is owned by Cutco has little knowledge regarding any knives made before the company was sold to Alcas in 1996. Sadly most if not all of the old records disappeared when the original factory closed. Probably went to the Olean, NY dump.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by knifeaholic »

I believe that from the time that Kabar closed their Olean factory on, the regular line of Delrin handled pocket knives were made by Camillus. Club knives and some special run stag handled knives were made by Queen.

I have also heard that Case and Alcas each made some of the limited run club knives for the Kabar collector's club.

In the late 90's when Alcas/Cutco bought the Kabar brand, the manufacture of the Kabar traditional slipjoints by Camillus ceased and all production was by Alcas - fixed blades and tactical folders.

Of course, Canal Street later made some traditional folders with the Union and Kabar trademarks.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Gunsil »

I don't have any proof that the later delrin knives were made by Camillus although I don't doubt they did. But, a lot of Kabar tang stamps with model number were in the Schrade factory in Ellenville when they closed. Eric Albers was selling them on ebay for a while. So although Camillus may have made some there is proof positive that Schrade did.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Robo »

Ka-Bar (Uion Cut co) Made their own toothpick/tickler knives right up to the time they stopped looking like the ones they made. After that, it's a matter of identifying what the contract company's Toothpicks looked like. For instance, at some point in the 90's whatever conclomerate owned the name "Ka-Bar" contracted their medium toothpicks from Queen/Bluegrass. How do I know this? Because the pattern die is the medium toothpick pattern die Queen used going back to before Queen, I have a Schatt & Morgan built on the same die! (I'll avoid opening the Queen vs. Bluegrass can of worms for now and just link the two; I’m confidant they can be.)

I say all this because I've seen otherwise very informative books on pocket knives speak incorrectly about "contract knives." The reasons one established cutlery company contracted knives from another are many. But 100% of the time, when they did, they contracted knives that pre-existed in the the contractor's line. So Camillus' Boating knife or Sailing knife (The one with the sheepsfoot blade and the spike) was contracted out to a number of companies over the years because it was cheaper for those companies to buy this labor intensive-- but less in demand--specialty knife and sell it under their own brand than to design and make the tooling to do it themselves.



In the Pre-straight XX Case era, the company, at some points in time, contracted some 5" Utica Toothpicks made with what some refer to as a Turkish clip blade. Why? It's impossible to say for sure, perhaps they wanted to offer their customers a toothpick with that style blade but not in such large quantities that they would have to start making their own. Or perhaps they just came up short to complete orders on occasion and filled the hole with Utica toothies that just happened to have that blade. But the point is they would never have a company make their pattern toothpick for them; that would defeat the reason to contract which is cost effectiveness. They also contracted the large, 5.5" toothpick from Schatt & Morgan at some point in time which they sold as a 61098 pattern number (the number of their own 5.5" toothy)
By the way, only one other company made the 5.5” toothpick pattern. Do you know what company it is?

A lot of collectors give Camillus default credit for contrating the godshare of pocket knives to other companies. And I’ve read in more than one book or article that the skilled workers at Camillus in the hey-day, “could copy any company’s knife pattern and because of this got a lot of contract work.” It’s certainly true that Camillus DID do a ton of contract work. But they didn't completely re-tool to do so. If you wanted to contract a 5" toothpick from Camillus, you had to take THEIR 5" toothpick.

Some assume the Remington (straight line) toothpick was made by Camillus. But the two patterns don’t match. So my conclusion is this information is incorrect.

So the best way to tell who made a knife is to be able to identify the pattern dies for every company you can find. This might be an impossible task for someone who is a all around collector. But for a Toothpick pattern collector it's not impossible at all. I have about 26 different patterns of 5" toothpicks at this point. I can refer to these to identify contract knives. only a portion of the 26 different companies, not all of them, contracted out their toothpicks, Camillus did for sure, but Utica easily went neck and neck. Both these company's knives are distinctive enough to easily pick out.

Union/Ka-Bar contracted to a bunch of other companies--L.L. Bean and the lesser known Fred Biffar come to mind. The Case toothpick collectors (exasperatingly) refer too as a "Barn Door" toothpick or a toothpick with "barn door handles, was most likely (I won't say for sure until I get my hads on one—but I’m 99% sure) made by Ka-Bar who had a patent on the design from 1928. Why I get exasperated when I hear "Barn Door" handles is because KA-Bar called this knife a "Pirate Switch" The stamped out flat nickel bolsters were meant to look like hardware you'd find on a pirate vessel or a treasure chest--but not a barn door! They also designed a long handled knife with a slight curve to it almost as thin as a Melon-tester. But don't call it that! KA-Bar dubbed it, the "Captain's Switch"! By the way, the term "switch" is a topic unto itself and for another post.
There's a post on "Knife Forum" that bugs me because the author claims a Fred Buffer Toothpick, which he provides a photo or two of, was made by Camillus. He even sights a Bernard Levine "Whatsit?" column as proof. But both he and Levine are incorrect. It's a Union/Ka-Bar! toothy. That said, Fred Biffar may very well have contracted Camillus toothpicks--but not the one pictured.

Imperial was another big contractor. Their Toothpick was not quite as well made as the Case toothpick. It’s usually offered as under a budget brand of knives from the big Hardware Wholesalers. But they were damn good knives, very atractive, with great back springs. I have one from the 1920s that has the hardest snap of any of my toothies and I now own quite a few. Every company’s patterns are different, some just barely when compared to others, some are very different. Imperial supplied Case’s “Standard Knife Company” brand with 5” toothpicks. Utica supplied them with 4.25 medium toothpicks. Goins states that KA-Bar provided pocket knives to Standard at some point. But it’s best not to assume that’s a definitive statement. Goins and his wife were pioneers whom serious collectors wisely turn to. But their book pre-dates the internet. Think what a much more accurate and correct reference book theirs would be if they were alive to put out an updated version!

Hope y’all find this helpful and mostly on topic. If it has strayed to far, I’d be happy to move it to it’s own post. I'll come back later with pictures!!!!
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by chorizotaco »

::clapping:: thank you
Robo wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:13 pm Ka-Bar (Uion Cut co) Made their own toothpick/tickler knives right up to the time they stopped looking like the ones they made. After that, it's a matter of identifying what the contract company's Toothpicks looked like. For instance, at some point in the 90's whatever conclomerate owned the name "Ka-Bar" contracted their medium toothpicks from Queen/Bluegrass. How do I know this? Because the pattern die is the medium toothpick pattern die Queen used going back to before Queen, I have a Schatt & Morgan built on the same die! (I'll avoid opening the Queen vs. Bluegrass can of worms for now and just link the two; I’m confidant they can be.)

I say all this because I've seen otherwise very informative books on pocket knives speak incorrectly about "contract knives." The reasons one established cutlery company contracted knives from another are many. But 100% of the time, when they did, they contracted knives that pre-existed in the the contractor's line. So Camillus' Boating knife or Sailing knife (The one with the sheepsfoot blade and the spike) was contracted out to a number of companies over the years because it was cheaper for those companies to buy this labor intensive-- but less in demand--specialty knife and sell it under their own brand than to design and make the tooling to do it themselves.



In the Pre-straight XX Case era, the company, at some points in time, contracted some 5" Utica Toothpicks made with what some refer to as a Turkish clip blade. Why? It's impossible to say for sure, perhaps they wanted to offer their customers a toothpick with that style blade but not in such large quantities that they would have to start making their own. Or perhaps they just came up short to complete orders on occasion and filled the hole with Utica toothies that just happened to have that blade. But the point is they would never have a company make their pattern toothpick for them; that would defeat the reason to contract which is cost effectiveness. They also contracted the large, 5.5" toothpick from Schatt & Morgan at some point in time which they sold as a 61098 pattern number (the number of their own 5.5" toothy)
By the way, only one other company made the 5.5” toothpick pattern. Do you know what company it is?

A lot of collectors give Camillus default credit for contrating the godshare of pocket knives to other companies. And I’ve read in more than one book or article that the skilled workers at Camillus in the hey-day, “could copy any company’s knife pattern and because of this got a lot of contract work.” It’s certainly true that Camillus DID do a ton of contract work. But they didn't completely re-tool to do so. If you wanted to contract a 5" toothpick from Camillus, you had to take THEIR 5" toothpick.

Some assume the Remington (straight line) toothpick was made by Camillus. But the two patterns don’t match. So my conclusion is this information is incorrect.

So the best way to tell who made a knife is to be able to identify the pattern dies for every company you can find. This might be an impossible task for someone who is a all around collector. But for a Toothpick pattern collector it's not impossible at all. I have about 26 different patterns of 5" toothpicks at this point. I can refer to these to identify contract knives. only a portion of the 26 different companies, not all of them, contracted out their toothpicks, Camillus did for sure, but Utica easily went neck and neck. Both these company's knives are distinctive enough to easily pick out.

Union/Ka-Bar contracted to a bunch of other companies--L.L. Bean and the lesser known Fred Biffar come to mind. The Case toothpick collectors (exasperatingly) refer too as a "Barn Door" toothpick or a toothpick with "barn door handles, was most likely (I won't say for sure until I get my hads on one—but I’m 99% sure) made by Ka-Bar who had a patent on the design from 1928. Why I get exasperated when I hear "Barn Door" handles is because KA-Bar called this knife a "Pirate Switch" The stamped out flat nickel bolsters were meant to look like hardware you'd find on a pirate vessel or a treasure chest--but not a barn door! They also designed a long handled knife with a slight curve to it almost as thin as a Melon-tester. But don't call it that! KA-Bar dubbed it, the "Captain's Switch"! By the way, the term "switch" is a topic unto itself and for another post.
There's a post on "Knife Forum" that bugs me because the author claims a Fred Buffer Toothpick, which he provides a photo or two of, was made by Camillus. He even sights a Bernard Levine "Whatsit?" column as proof. But both he and Levine are incorrect. It's a Union/Ka-Bar! toothy. That said, Fred Biffar may very well have contracted Camillus toothpicks--but not the one pictured.

Imperial was another big contractor. Their Toothpick was not quite as well made as the Case toothpick. It’s usually offered as under a budget brand of knives from the big Hardware Wholesalers. But they were damn good knives, very atractive, with great back springs. I have one from the 1920s that has the hardest snap of any of my toothies and I now own quite a few. Every company’s patterns are different, some just barely when compared to others, some are very different. Imperial supplied Case’s “Standard Knife Company” brand with 5” toothpicks. Utica supplied them with 4.25 medium toothpicks. Goins states that KA-Bar provided pocket knives to Standard at some point. But it’s best not to assume that’s a definitive statement. Goins and his wife were pioneers whom serious collectors wisely turn to. But their book pre-dates the internet. Think what a much more accurate and correct reference book theirs would be if they were alive to put out an updated version!

Hope y’all find this helpful and mostly on topic. If it has strayed to far, I’d be happy to move it to it’s own post. I'll come back later with pictures!!!!
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by eveled »

Great post. You put into words a lot of stuff I suspected, but had no proof.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Gunsil »

Robo, you are definitely correct about Fred Biffar, I have a few fixed blades with his mark and they are definite Union Cut products. I do not at all buy your idea that the KA-BAR "barn door" bolsters were meant to have any nautical design regardless of the names etched on their blades. I have a toothpick marked Western States with those bolsters, and KA-BAR made a lot of knives for Western States. I am sure that if you inspect the Case version you will find it a KA-BAR product too. Mr Levine also definitely shoots from the hip and his word is definitely not gospel, there are errors in his fine book and he messes up in his column on occasion, but in general he is a great asset to collectors. The only problem I have with him is that he refuses to accept he makes mistakes and when presented with proof refuses to state the facts if they differ from his statements.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by knifeaholic »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:11 am I don't have any proof that the later delrin knives were made by Camillus although I don't doubt they did. But, a lot of Kabar tang stamps with model number were in the Schrade factory in Ellenville when they closed. Eric Albers was selling them on ebay for a while. So although Camillus may have made some there is proof positive that Schrade did.
That is interesting, so they must have. Just that I have never seen a Kabar with Swinden construction.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Robo »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:31 pm Robo, you are definitely correct about Fred Biffar, I have a few fixed blades with his mark and they are definite Union Cut products.

I have one! I don't think it's Union cut co tho. I'll take a look and let you know. It might have been a cheaper brand he was also peddling. He bought toothpicks from Wordsworth Germany /Czechoslovakia too--but gave them all his "Dixie Switch" trademark. Do you have the catalog reprint? it's quite interesting.

I do not at all buy your idea that the KA-BAR "barn door" bolsters were meant to have any nautical design regardless of the names etched on their blades.

Really? If they had called it "Farmer Switch" I'd look at those bolsters and say, "Oh, I get it, they call it the "Farmer Switch" because the bolsters look like barn Door hinges!" So, why is it such a stretch to conclude that if they called it the "Pirate Switch" they looked at the bolsters and thought about the harware on an old pirate ship or a trasure chest?

I have a toothpick marked Western States with those bolsters, and KA-BAR made a lot of knives for Western States. I am sure that if you inspect the Case version you will find it a KA-BAR product too.

Agreed! Infact I seem to remember seeing one on "Worth Point" with the patent date on the pile side. Not sure why I balked.

Mr Levine also definitely shoots from the hip and his word is definitely not gospel, there are errors in his fine book and he messes up in his column on occasion, but in general he is a great asset to collectors. The only problem I have with him is that he refuses to accept he makes mistakes and when presented with proof refuses to state the facts if they differ from his statements.
Agreed! My motto is "collectors correct." The show isn't over! New collectors enter the vintage pocket knife world every day. They deserve an accurate accounting of the facinating history of pocket knives and the industry. It's our job to help them receive it. We shouldn't blush to point out mistakes and the experts--titans of the community or not-- shouldn't blush at owning up to them. Thanks for your thoughtful response, brother, Hope you and yours are well.
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Robo »

eveled wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:07 pm Great post. You put into words a lot of stuff I suspected, but had no proof.
Any Time--friend!
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Robo »

chorizotaco wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:56 pm ::clapping:: thank you
Robo wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:13 pm
You're welcome, brother--happy to help.




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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by Miller Bro's »

H
Robo wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:56 am My motto is "collectors correct." The show isn't over! New collectors enter the vintage pocket knife world every day. They deserve an accurate accounting of the facinating history of pocket knives and the industry. It's our job to help them receive it. We shouldn't blush to point out mistakes and the experts--titans of the community or not-- shouldn't blush at owning up to them. Thanks for your thoughtful response, brother, Hope you and yours are well.
Absolutely! ::handshake::
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

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Robo wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:56 am My motto is "collectors correct." The show isn't over! New collectors enter the vintage pocket knife world every day. They deserve an accurate accounting of the facinating history of pocket knives and the industry. It's our job to help them receive it. We shouldn't blush to point out mistakes and the experts--titans of the community or not-- shouldn't blush at owning up to them. Thanks for your thoughtful response, brother, Hope you and yours are well.
Absolutely! ::handshake::
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by 1967redrider »

I think this Folding Hunter was made by Queen, possibly in September of 1983, as the pile side stamp I believe indicates a date rather than a pattern number. The mirror polishing on this knife is remarkable, had a hard time taking pictures without getting reflections. Eric said previously he's pretty sure Canal Street didn't make this knife.

Could it have been Bluegrass? ::shrug::
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

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I don't know but it is a good looking and well made knife ::tu::
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Re: Who made KA-BAR pocket knives?

Post by 1967redrider »

:)
Miller Bro's wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:06 pm I don't know but it is a good looking and well made knife ::tu::

I agree. ::handshake::
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