What's wrong with the knives made in China?

A place to discuss & share pictures of knives made in China.
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orvet
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by orvet »

One of the main differences in the price is the labor used to produce the knife.
In America we have (had) a free market system. The people who own Case actually own their company.
They are free to employ who they wish and pay them the going rate (minimum wage, etc figures in here as well). In most labor markets a skilled worker makes far more than the minimum wage.
-VS-
In China, with their mixture of Communism and Capitalism, a private individual may own a company or part of it (as I understand their system) but the government may own the other part of the company. In either case the government has much more control over the company and what they produce.

In the USA, the company (Case) pays the worker. They hire and fire workers, or lay them off temporally as they need them, but Case pays the worker.
-VS-
In China the company may pay the worker, but the government may pay part or all of the salary.
Thus artificially lowering the cost to produce the product (the knife in this case).

In the USA, workers are free to come and go from jobs at will
-VS-
in China, prisoners are often assigned to a factory to produce goods as part of their prison sentence.
This further lowers the cost of producing the knife.
BTW, who is likely to be the best knife maker, the Case employee who likes his job and has worked at it for 25 years, or the prisoner who is assigned to assemble knives as part of their prison sentence?

Who do you suppose has more pride in his work, the 25-year Case employee or the worker or prisoner assigned to a knife factory?
Which of those do you suppose will produce a better knife?

The main difference I think is the workers themselves. IMHO, free men & women who work at a job of their own free choice and take some pride in their work will most likely produce a better product.

The main difference is freedom. Case makes a knife using citizens who have the freedom to quit and start their own company. This has often happened historically in the knife industry in America. In China the worker is a subject of the state and must do as the state tells them, and must work for what the state will pay.

IMHO, citizens make better knives than subjects. It is a matter of FREEDOM. I guess it all depends on what system you want your money to support. And if you don’t believe that your purchases make a difference……then there is nothing I, or anyone else can say to change your mind.

See you all in a couple weeks,
Dale
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jerryd6818 »

We as knife collectors tend to forget that more knives are sold to users than to collectors. We live today in a Wal-Mart economy where the American standard of living is being kept propped up by cheap imported goods. Most knife buyers (non-collectors) are going to use and abuse the knife they buy till they break it or lose it then go buy another one. A $10 Rough Rider will serve the same function for that person as a $100 Case and he will have little if any appreciation for the difference between the two other than the price.

The issue in a nutshell. Well said Phil. Of course ya'll know by now I have an opinion on everything and can't leave well enough alone.
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I don't know about where you live, but around here you'd be hard pressed to find a Case knife for sale anyplace in town (a town of 150,000 so it's not Podunk Kansas). I don't recall ever seeing Queen on display and of course, no Schrades are available. In the mid-90s you could buy an American made Buck at Walmart but they disappeared from there sometime before 2000. It's been within the past ten years that the Case display disappeared from the local hardware store. Lowe's had a Case display but they took it down about five or six years ago. I think you can still buy a new Case at Gander Mountain but I wouldn't swear to it.

All that said, without a full on search (which is not going to happen in most situations), around here the only choice the non-collectors have for a new purchase of an EDC is what's on the shelves and racks (because that's what's convenient) of Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Menard's and some of the sporting goods stores, which is going to put a Chinese knife in their pocket. They have no knowledge of what knives are made where and even if they are knowledgeable about country of origin and if they care, most don't have a clue where to find a Case, Queen or Utica.

As Phil said, the average Joe doesn't think like a collector. He just wants a cheap knife that cuts stuff. Hell, I carried a little 2 3/4" utility knife for quite a while. Cheap, lite and easy to sharpen (just change the blade and it's razor sharp again), it did 99% of my cutting chores.

I don't care for the Chinese knives for reasons that have little to do with the knives themselves. Aside from that issue, I think, we as collectors/accumulators, get carried away with our expectations and the knife aspect of our EDC becomes more important to us than the practical reason we carry.

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?

I know that many of you are speaking from your heart on this topic, and I respect that. Don't you think it's interesting that out of 31 replies to this question not 1 specific hard difference has been pointed out between the actual knives themselves. The closest we came was a comment about the quality of the blades of the China-made knives. But aren't Rough Rider blades made of 440 stainless, and don't they have the reputation of an extremely sharp blade?

So what am I saying? If we are willing to pay $71 more for a knife that has very few actual qualitative benefits over the $8 imported clone, doesn't that put the ball back in the court of our American knifemakers to build more cost-efficiency into their knives and sell their knives to us at more competitive prices?

In other words, is there $71 difference between them? It appears that most of the difference is more the intangible kind like emotional and political than actual tangible differences in the hardware, materials and workmanship.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jerryd6818 »

jrayyy wrote:From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?

I know that many of you are speaking from your heart on this topic, and I respect that. Don't you think it's interesting that out of 31 replies to this question not 1 specific hard difference has been pointed out between the actual knives themselves. The closest we came was a comment about the quality of the blades of the China-made knives. But aren't Rough Rider blades made of 440 stainless, and don't they have the reputation of an extremely sharp blade?

So what am I saying? If we are willing to pay $71 more for a knife that has very few actual qualitative benefits over the $8 imported clone, doesn't that put the ball back in the court of our American knife makers to build more cost-efficiency into their knives and sell their knives to us at more competitive prices?

In other words, is there $71 difference between them? It appears that most of the difference is more the intangible kind like emotional and political than actual tangible differences in the hardware, materials and workmanship.
I see your point. I really do. BUT where are American companies supposed to find $71 in savings when making a knife? Not all the $71 difference in price of your example knife (I don't know where you got the $79 dollar figure but I'm guessing it's an arbitrary figure pulled out of the air) is labor and materials. A good portion of the $71 difference comes straight from the government coffers of the country of origin (usually China in the current discussion). Do you expect the U.S. to cough up those kinds of subsidies for the knife industry, the clothing industry, the automobile industry, the tool and manufacturing equipment industry, etc, etc? Subsidies on top of the social programs already in place and in addition, those social programs the liberals are asking for? Do you really believe any country can manufacture a quality knife, with shipping and profit margin built in, that can be sold for eight bucks?

Do you think Schrade wanted to go bankrupt while trying to compete?

Right now, one of the least expensive American made knives is manufactured by Utica. They run from $18.95 for a little single blade coping knife with composite handles to $32.95 for a three blade stockman with jigged bone handles. Those are the prices at their retailer so you know Utica sells them to KnifeCenter for less because everyone who touches them has to make some profit. I've never seen one but according to those on this forum that have purchased them, they're a well made knife. That's the no subsidy, no forced labor, quality material, as close to straight to the consumer as you can get equivalent of your Chinese made $8 knife. Ask any number cruncher at Utica Cutlery Company and I'm sure they will tell you there's no fat on those prices.

If you want to buy $8 Chinese knives, that's your privilege. As an American citizen, you are free to spend your money any way you want. Just don't ask me to jump on that bandwagon. They're addicting because they're cheap. I own a dozen Chinese knives and admittedly they are better made than a knife made in India, Pakistan, Mexico or Singapore but that doesn't make me want to buy more.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Knife Nut »

I don't own a knife that was made in China....never have....never will!

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

Ditto KN
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Railsplitter »

jrayyy wrote:From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?
It has to do with the currency exchange rate. My figures are not exact so take this with a grain of salt.
The U.S. dollar is worth about six times as much in China. Six dollars in China is worth about one dollar in the U.S.
A Chinese made knife that costs $8 in the U.S. would cost you the equivilant of about $48 if you bought it in China.
China spends more money than it seems to make their knives. It just doesn't seem like it to us because they cost so little here.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

Thank you Jerry, Sable and Gino. I think you put this one to bed.

Thanks to all!
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by bluerush55 »

Hey Hey and WOW
I like lead myself....
Nice knife there ::ds::
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Elvis »

Hard to do, but putting politics aside, a quick 2 cents on the Chinese knives I've seen.......they are blatant copies. Flat out design rip-offs down to the centimeter. Pretty shameless really.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by glennbad »

While I agree that the Chinese are more than capable of making a quality product, what are their general warranty policies? When there is a problem, with a knife, what kind of customer service do you expect to get? Has anyone sent their Rough Rider knife back for repair under warranty?(Serious question)

I think most American companies have a decent warranty policy and will stand behind their product. That service comes at a price, and adds to that $71 price tag. Some knife co. will re-ship warranty knives back for free or other types of cost discounts, no questions asked. I hear many people that buy rough riders or other Chinese knives say, "if it breaks or I lose it, I'm only out $8". If you spent $50 or $100 on a knife, I doubt you'd have the same attitude.

As to quality, I'm concerned with the manufacturing process of Chinese knives such as Rough Rider. Most American knife companies build their reputation on the quality of the knives they make. We as consumers let the word get out on the quality of blade steel and handle materials, and most companies can and will provide the origins of those materials. I'm concerned, (but have no proof), that Chinese companies don't have the same oversight in their products, so do you truly know what that steel quality is, or if the heat treat is consistent?

I liken it to car manufacturing. Most cars when new look great, but it's only after prolonged use do you see parts start to wear or fail, and then you realize why it was so inexpensive to begin with. That's what I think knives like Rough Riders are. I purchased a stockman of theirs once, just to see what the fuss was all about. I have to admit, out of the box, it was a pretty nice knife. I carried it around for awhile, the steel wasn't bad. But eventually I noticed that the back spring on the main blade was starting to sink below flush, where it was flush when purchased. Maybe that was a bad one that got through, but I have more questions now about their quality control in materials as a result of that experience.

To each their own, I suppose. I tried to keep politics out of this, as I have my own brash opinions on the subject, but those are the differences as I see them.

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

Well spoken Glenn. I agree 100%
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

Thanks Glen. These last few replies have pretty well disected this topic. A lot of good points have come out.

All this having been said, I have to say that if I lay in front of me 3 pocketknives, let's say a Case Schatt & Morgan and Rough Rider, all Muskrats with amber bone handles; even if the materials used in making the knives are exactly the same for each one, there is a distinctive difference in the way each is perceived. Not only do the Case and S&M stand out from the RR, but the S&M and Case stand out from each other. I know this would be true for me and I would think for most collectors and knife enthusiasts, but don't you think it is likely that even newcomers would also see a difference between them?

I know that Case is touted to be best all around and its fans are fiercely loyal, and for good reason, but another brand such as the S&M with less advertising, promotion and general acceptance, can produce a knife that can stand out even from a Case.

I don't know exactly what it is but there is something about the workmanship and artistry that goes into these premium U.S. knives that in some mysterious way makes the brand stand out on its own and in some cases are so beautiful they can make a grown man cry. :)

Now, I have never seen a knife made in China that had these same subtle qualities. It seems certain that the workmanship, dedication and personal love for their art that American knifemakers put into their products gives their knives qualities that can be seen and appreciated.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Darksev »

I always seem to chime in on these threads when they pop up (which is every 4-6 months) so I've decided to phone it in today. My last few comments on chinese knives:
Chinese production, politics aside, is ALL about what your willing to spend on quality control. It's all about the math. $ = blech. $$$$ = top shelf Fit, finish and workmanship. I'm slowly coming to realize it's the diligence of the company, not so much the origin of the product with regards to modern cutlery. even with good companies, it's hit and miss unless your constantly vigilant and willing to spend to ensure quality.
I think the point was to highlight that any country that allows industry to treat human beings and the environment with such disregard does not deserve financial support. While there may be many reputable companies manufacturing products, the fact that ANY of this is allowed to exist in the first place is shameless.

Generally speaking, if such industry existed in this country they would be shut down, boycotted and maligned until things were brought to a safe and healthy standard. The chinese mentality towards much of it's growth in manufacturing has been "Disposable people and disposable products" for many years.

Much like how people should know and understand where the food they eat is produced (and under what conditions) People should understand where the products they buy come from (and under what conditions they are made). While individual companies and industries may vary, it's important to guage the general state of such institutions.

It's all hipocritical though. everyone still shops at walmart for the awesome deals, and everyone owns chinese goods.
At least for me, the issue has two parts. The physical component is the knives themselves. If you take an average of the quality of these Chinese and Paki knives, they quality, F&F and value is, to say the least, very poor. The fact remains that regardless of where you make something, quality costs money, and many companies are aiming for the "wal-mart" demographic, where they feel they can neglect quality to lower cost. This, if cynical sounding, is truly the American way of business nowadays (ha, I sound all old and jaded, you'd never know I'm 27 :P) If you want a quality import, you will pay prices that compare to American made products.

Spyderco is a prime example of this. You will pay a premium for a Spyderco knife. Most models (FRN aside) sit around the $100 mark. Most are made in Japan. I will put the F&F and Quality of my Kopa or Lava against any US made production knife at the same price level, and it will be similar, because again, quality costs money.

The second part of the issue is, not so much spiritual, but could well be considered such. There's something satisfying about holding something "you" made. American made products have that sense of national identity. "We" made this. With quality craftsmanship and pride, companies like GEC, Queen and Case are worthy of such a feeling. This, if for no other reason, is why I buy my slipjoints here. I guarantee you, if I wanted a perfect quality, amazing $150 slippie with wonderous exotic steels, I could find one built just about anywhere on earth to my specifications (even if, for some countries, it would be the exception to the average).

This second issue is I think what some of our big US companies are dealing with right now. they squandered that "good feeling" during the 80's and 90's, producing substandard goods. Relying on the "Made in the USA" label to sell products without putting in the "quality craftsmanship" leads to a deficit in consumer confidence in your goods. Getting that confidence back is infinitely harder than earning it in the first place. I believe, in the case of the Chinese, that the stigma of "Made in China" will haunt them long after they decide to up the average quality.
So, there you have it. the last year or so in China topics from me. My current stance on the issue is as follows: If I know quality control is top notch (spyderco, Boker, benchmade), and I know the designer is good (Chad LosBanos, Jens Anso, Jesper Voxnaes, etc) then for my non-slipjoint knives, I don't care what the stamp says. I know I'm getting a good knife. traditional Slipjoints, however... need to say USA on that tangstamp, or I'm not touching it. That's just personal preference, with no need for reasoning behind it.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Railsplitter »

jrayyy wrote:
All this having been said, I have to say that if I lay in front of me 3 pocketknives, let's say a Case Schatt & Morgan and Rough Rider, all Muskrats with amber bone handles; even if the materials used in making the knives are exactly the same for each one, there is a distinctive difference in the way each is perceived. Not only do the Case and S&M stand out from the RR, but the S&M and Case stand out from each other. I know this would be true for me and I would think for most collectors and knife enthusiasts, but don't you think it is likely that even newcomers would also see a difference between them?

I know that Case is touted to be best all around and its fans are fiercely loyal, and for good reason, but another brand such as the S&M with less advertising, promotion and general acceptance, can produce a knife that can stand out even from a Case.

I don't know exactly what it is but there is something about the workmanship and artistry that goes into these premium U.S. knives that in some mysterious way makes the brand stand out on its own and in some cases are so beautiful they can make a grown man cry. :)

Now, I have never seen a knife made in China that had these same subtle qualities. It seems certain that the workmanship, dedication and personal love for their art that American knifemakers put into their products gives their knives qualities that can be seen and appreciated.
Bravo jrayyy. That right there is what its all about.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by sextonknifeworks »

here is the best reason of all the posts so far (see link):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPZW28L4deo
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

It says it all is right. Great clip. OUCH!!
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Darksev »

And that, my friends, is why you don't make large, thin blades out of stainless steel :)
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by ibele-finley »

No one collects Chinese knives. That should tell ya somethnig. ::dang::
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

I wonder if Chinese guys collect Chinese knives??? LOL!!
-( life is too short to carry a cheap knife )-
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by MrBlister »

Nothing's wrong with China made knifes..




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have a nice ginzu
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by johnnierotten »

I got these as a gift over the weekend.....Steel Warriors... :shock:
I wasn't going to post these..but I guess this is the place..If'n I was gonna!!
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by philco »

JR those match the Chinese fixed blade set I inherited. ::doh::

Somebody must really like ya. :mrgreen:

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

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.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jljr1944 »

I am 67 years old and I can remember when anything that had Japan stamped on it was viewed as cheap and undesireable. Now Japan is well known for making quality cars,cameras,recording equipment,etc.
I have a Rough Rider folding hunter and a Crandall folding hunter made by Case. I bought the two knives just to compare quality and there isn't 5 cents of difference between them but the Crandall cost 45 dollars more than the Rough Rider.

China pays their workers next to nothing and that is wrong but part of the reason american car companies got in trouble is because they were paying high school dropouts 30 dollars to do a job and passing everything on to the consumer and that is wrong also.
I don't like China either but I dislike being ripped off even more. I am going to buy the best product for the best price no matter if it is a camera,car,or whatever. I am not going to buy American made products if it means subsidizing government regulations on U.S. companies,over paid union workers,etc.

My comments may rub some of you the wrong way but it's the way I feel.
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