Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

In 1911, H. N. Platts, was able to draw on his extensive friendships and family connections in the cutlery world to start Western States Cutlery and Manufacturing of Boulder Colorado. At first only a jobbing business, by 1920 construction and machinery purchases were underway to begin manufacture of knives. Through name changes--to Western States Cutlery Co. in 1953, then Western Cutlery Co. in 1956--and moves first across town and later to Longmont Colorado, the company stayed under the leadership of the Platt family until 1984. In that year, the company was sold to Coleman, becoming Coleman-Western. Eventually purchased by Camillus in 1991, Western continued until Camillus expired in 2007.
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Sirveyir
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Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by Sirveyir »

I first found my way to AAPK while researching information on some pocket knives I was collecting, but as the winter progressed I found that I was drawn to refurbishing vintage sheath knives that I was buying on eBay. I was further drawn to a concentration on Western sheath knives, as I had owned and lost several as a youngster and wished to collect some examples of knives that I had owned. This has become a bit of an obsession and my collection now stands at about thirty knives, has prompted me to purchase Harvey Platts' book, The Knife Makers Who Went West, get the Kinfolks book and study the website by Dean Elliott Case and am now indulging a growing interest in leather work and sheath making after refurbishing some pretty crusty old sheaths.

I have been able to source a good bit of information about dating my Western knives but I do have several questions and hope that I might take advantage of your expertise in these matters.

I have a Western 239 pattern with the tang stamp WESTERN/BOULDER, COLO./PAT'D MADE IN U.S.A. This knife has the Lucite and pearl handle with a steel guard and aluminum pommel and a flat oak leaf sheath. Am I correct in thinking that this is post-war, 1946-1951 production? Does anyone know what year that Western dropped the pearl handle? It is shown in the 1959-1960 catalog in TKMWWW, but not in the 1968 catalog.

When was the Black Beauty line first introduced? It seems to be featured in the 1960 Catalog Sheet that is published in TKMWWW. Was that the first year of production? Did the line continue through the Coleman ownership?

Does anyone know when the Model Numbers where first stamped into the face of the finger guard? When that ended?

When was the West-Cut line of knives introduced? When did it end?

I have an L39 pattern that has WESTERN/BOULDER, COLO./U.S.A. tang stamp and L39 stamped on the reverse side. Any idea what years that this was used?

Thanks for your help. Any information will be very helpful in helping me date some of my knives.

I was trying to insert a picture of the current state of my collection, but haven't mastered the technique of doing that. As my wife says, "There are probably some more on the way." She might be right.
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Welcome to AAPK! I can’t answer your questions but I can steer you to the directions for posting pictures. Here’s a link to the AAPK Tips and Tricks. viewforum.php?f=98 Scroll down until you find the thread pertaining to your device (iPad, Android, PC, etc). While your there take a look around at the other threads there - you’ll probably need the info at some future date and that’s usually the go-to place to get your questions about the forum answered.

Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

Ken
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by zzyzzogeton »

The 239 was dropped sometime between it's appearance in the 1959-1960 catalog pages and the 1968 pages. It is impossible to know when it dropped out of the line up. It may have been dropped in 1961 or 1967. How long were they sold after the cessation of marketing is another unknown. How long will something sit on a shelf in a small town hardware store waiting to be sold.

You are correct (IMO) that your knife is a post-war version - the pre-war versions did not have "MADE IN USA" as part of the stamp. Since it has a reference to the bifurcated tang patent, it was made not later than 1953/54.

My dating assignments on a knife are 1946 if a knife has a steel guard and 1947 or later if it has a brass guard. It took a while for brass to become available in quantity after the war ended in Aug 45.

On the Black Beauty knives - per an ad dated 1956, the F28, F48A, F48B, F66 and F39 were available. An add in a 1958 jobber's catalog that listed the F48A, the F48B and the F40 with a "NEW" in an oval by them, so either the F40 was available in 1956, but not depicted in the ad, or it came out in 1957 or 1958. The 1958 ad probably means that the knives were "new" to the jobber in 1958, since at least the F48A and F48B were already out in 1956.

The earliest I have seen the F10 hatchet advertised was 1957 as a F6610 combo, pairing the F66 knife with the F10 hatchet.

The earliest reference to the F14 hatchet is the 1960 ads in TKMWWW.

All the BBs were dead before Coleman took ownership. The last F was the F48B, which appeared in the 1978 pages as the only BB model available for the major display racks. That was probably the last year of the F48B, as I have never run across a "C" or "D" dated coded F48B, much less any later years.

I have always taken 1968 as the first full year for the guard stamped model numbers based on the prominence of thee 1968 ads touting the model being on the guards. I say first full year as there are small rivet / guard marked Western Bowies (stamp predecessor to the W49), that I have figured to be 1967 models as 1968 is the first advertising of the W49 model number.

Having said that, there are 2 prominent members of AAPK who have guard marked L39s that they say were acquired through S&H Green Stamp redemption in the late 1950s. I have not had time to go back to a university library archive of 1950s magazines to try to research them. Maybe later down the road when I retire a third time.

Guard stamping stopped not later than 1976 as there are examples of guard stamped knives WITHOUT reference to Boulder (dropped starting in 1973) but no examples ever of a guard stamped knife with a date code.

The earliest I have seen WEST-CUT on a fixed blade that I remember off the top of my head is 1931 - on a G46-5 with a PAT APP'D FOR stamp on its pile side ricasso. I "think" I remember seeing it on a possible 1928-1931 model, but that may be a mis-rememberance. This run of WEST-CUT ended in 1941 with the start of WW2.

The 2nd, short-lived run of the stamp was with the K series of knives that came out in 1958, and died by the time the 1959/1960 catalog came out.

Pile side model numbers are from 1955, when model numbers started to 1967, when they shifted to the guard. The exception to this is the 46-8 model. It retained pile side model stamping through 1976.
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Steve Warden
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by Steve Warden »

Sorry, I don't have any useful info for.
But welcome to AAPK!!
Take care and God bless,

Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000

But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
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cody6268
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by cody6268 »

Wish I could help, but my stage of Western knowledge is at about what yours is. I don't even own one yet; still looking for a decent one at a sub-$20 price point. What part of SWVA are you from? I'm from the Tazewell County area myself.
samb1955
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by samb1955 »

Welcome to the forum.
Sirveyir
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by Sirveyir »

Thanks zzyzzogeton for the awesome data! You nailed every one of my questions. I'm sorry that the first two retirements have not worked out for you. I'm just on my first now and intend for it to be my last. I just got the wife retired from twenty years of teaching elementary school last year, and except for the weight gain, it's been great.

For cody6268, I am located in Montgomery County, just outside of Blacksburg. I am quite familiar with Tazewell County. As you might have guessed from my handle, I am a retired land surveyor and, as Johnny Cash said, I've been everywhere, man. Good luck on getting a sub-$20 Western. About the best I have been able to luck into on eBay is $25, and then there was some shipping cost, too. Most of mine have been in the $30-45 range, with the shipping. Then I am shopping for un-refurbished knives that are going to need some work.

Just today I received a Western Baby Shark knife that I knew was going to need a replacement of the stacked leather handle. There was a replacement kit for Western knives that was being sold on eBay, but they seem to have run out of stock and there is no indication that there will be more. Anyone out there who know of a source for split tang leather washers? I do have a print of a Western ad from a 1945 Field & Stream magazine that featured the Western G-46 Shark Knife. Mine has the steel guard, but not the full guard, as in the ad.

Here is the link: https://www.fieldandstream.com/sites/fi ... k=1NpCA_WB

I'll try to get it together to post a picture soon. Best regards!
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Right now, my only source is hand cutting the disks. For a while, I was able to laser cut them, but then my laser cutter source went bankrupt and left me hanging out to dry.

You only have to be exact when cutting the slots that form the "H". If the outer edges are over-sized and/or sloppy, I just sand them down to "fit".

That G46 in the ad is a G46-6 or Shark since it specifies a 6" blade length, so the full guard is appropriate, The 5" Baby Sharks have a half-guard.

What is interesting with this ad is that it shows the Shark WITHOUT a lanyard hole in the pommel. All WW2 era Sharks have lanyard hole. All the post war Sharks that I have seen in person or via pictures have had a lanyard hole.

I would love to find a Shark without a lanyard hole AND a steel guard that would match the ad. Personally, I think that the illustrator for the ad forgot to put a lanyard hole in the pommel since the L58 and L48 in the ad are hole-less.
Sirveyir
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by Sirveyir »

I was able to make contact with the fellow selling the leather handle spacers on eBay. He also sells the colored fiber spacers. He says that he had forgotten to relist them, but now they are back up. I have just ordered some for my G-46-5 Baby Shark project.

Here are the links:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Huntin ... 1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Huntin ... 1438.l2649

I had one question about finishing the handle. Do you dye the leather before gluing, stacking and sanding the handle, or just after finish sanding the new handle?
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by zzyzzogeton »

What you do with the disks and when you do it is up to you. It depends on what you want the end result to look like.

You can go with just straight untreated leather disks. I've read that the original leather disks on the WW2 1219C2s/USN-MK2s were undyed. That the dark handle color is so variable due to how much use, oil, sweat, dirt, grime was on the hands using them over time. Leather conditioning treatments will also darken the leather - e.g., Neatsfoot oil, Snowseal, Pecards', etc

You can use the bare leather disks and then put a light "shellac" or "varnish" coat on the outside of the handle after final shaping. I believe this is what Western did in the mid-60s until they ceased using leather for handles. My L46-5 that my grandfather gave me in 1965 started life with a very light brown tone that over the years has taken on a darker "aged" hue.

You can dye the disks any color you want prior to use on the handle and then coat or not, your choice. The only thing you need to watch for is that you allow the dyed disks to THOROUGHLY dry before use. If they are still damp when stacked, it will promote mold and rot down the line.

You can paint the disks rather than dye them. The drying caveat remains.

Have fun. It's your knife and you can do it your way with no repercussions. If you don't like the end result. start over.
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terryl308
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Re: Western Details - New to AAPK and First Post

Post by terryl308 »

Some very good advise given you by zz. My only comment would be to use "raw" leather to make your handle, then shape it and dye it after completely shaped. If you dye it first , you will have to let it dry completely or the glue will not work very good, and if you have to sand it later, the dye will sand off. I believe most of the color on the leather was from use and the oil and dirt from use. Nice project you have, good luck, ::handshake:: Terru
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