The 1911 is worthless as defense.

[3030remchesterCOLO]

Another true story kind of blade related. An elderly man from Chicago moved to our little mountain town. Sam was a WW 2 vet serving with the Marines on Saipan. Sam knew little to nothing about firearms and when the subject of the 1911 came up he was very vocal about how poor of a gun it was. I told him I was of a different opinion group as many people are and that we thought it was one of the finest. He just waved me off like I was a no nothing kid. After hearing him bash the 1911 and 45 ACP cartridge one too many times I said rather forcefully that he didn't know what he was talking about. At this point the man turned red in the face, scooted his chair away from the table, stood on the chair and ripped his shirt open without unbuttoning it first. All the way across his chest was a large scar. He said this is what happens when you have a 1911 in your hand and a Japanese soldier has a bayonet. He didn't elaborate and even though he still didn't know much about guns, he was entitled to his opinion on this subject. He said the only good thing about the experience was the wound was still healing when we invade Iwo Jima and he was still in the hospital.

[1967redrider]

Interesting story and thankful for Sam's service. I do know a 1911 and the .45 auto round are fun to shoot. I wonder how the Japanese soldier faired?

[jerryd6818]

Interesting.

[Samb]

Apparently he didn't shoot him with it or his opinion would be much different, just my opinion but I sure wouldn't want to be shot with a 45 ACP.

[3030remchesterCOLO]

Sam gave me the impression that he had shot his opponent without success, however that was just my impression. The gun hanging on my bedpost for 50 years now is a Colt 1911, but I am not impressed by its stopping power. I used it on several smaller big game animals and was not entirely successful. The war is full of stories of the 45 ACP and ball ammo failing to stop. A story in the future will be a story related to his siblings and parents by my uncle while fighting in Bataan and his use of the 45 ACP and hunting monkeys.

[jerryd6818]

I'd sure as Hade's hate to get shot by one.

[Colonel26]

That feller has earned his right to his opinion. And I agree that ball ammo was probably the culprit, coupled with poor aiming in the heat of the moment. Anyone who has ever shot a deer in the boiler room, taking out heart and lungs, and still having the deer run 30 yards can attest to that.

The one I tote daily is loaded with some pretty nasty hollow points.

[Samb]

That feller has earned his right to his opinion. And I agree that ball ammo was probably the culprit, coupled with poor aiming in the heat of the moment. Anyone who has ever shot a deer in the boiler room, taking out heart and lungs, and still having the deer run 30 yards can attest to that.

The one I tote daily is loaded with some pretty nasty hollow points.

Mine too!

[3030remchesterCOLO]

Mine as well is loaded with some hollow points large enough to stock trout in. However, I am under no delusion that whatever hit with them with just fade away. I shot a 100# antelope with 185 grain Winchester Silvertips. Took 8 rounds to finally get it to sleep in my freezer. I recovered 6 fully mushroomed bullets from the antelope. Shot a 30# javalina with a fast Speer 200 grain hollow point from mere feet away. I scurried into the Arizona brush and a short time later it came back for a second dose. Shot a wounded bull elk with 2 hard cast 200 grain swc's in the neck. As I was about to roll him over, he came back to life enough to hook me and toss me down a mountain. A police officer friend of mine was doing night practice at our range. Before everyone was ready, they heard my friend shoot. Asking what was going on, he walked back to squad car saying he thought he had shot himself. Sure enough pulling up his pant leg reviled a 45 ACP hole entering and exiting his kneecap. He went to the hospital where a drain straw was inserted into the wound and given a walker and sent home. Two days later he was without a walker or cane and back on modified duty. As I stated a 45 ACP is hanging on my bedpost, but I have not allusions of a quiver mass being all that is left if I have to shoot something with it.

[Colonel26]

Caliber alone has little bearing on stopping a threat, or animal, immediately. To have a bang flop, or a one shot stop to an aggressor you have to disrupt the central nervous system.

A 45 caliber bullet punching through muscle isn’t necessarily life threatening or even effective at stopping someone. Break some bone and the likelihood of death, or the fight stopping goes up. Take out the lungs/heart and death will likely occur, but not necessarily as quickly as you’d like. But take out the central nervous system and the fight is over.

Round nose bullets like your elderly friend was saddled with don’t punch 45 caliber holes in flesh. They tear, push apart the flesh, but in such a way that the flesh closes back up to a degree.

A wadcutter or semi wadcutter will definitely punch a 45 caliber hole. But they’ll also penetrate further than you’d probably like in a crowded environment.

A well constructed, modern hollow point will penetrate, expand, and usually won’t over penetrate to the degree of the wad cutter.

All that to say this. The wimpiest 38 special lead wadcutter that you can hit the central nervous system with trumps the nastiest 44 mag slobberknocker to the leg.

That said, I like big fat slow bullets. Gimme a 45acp!

[orvet]

I'll take a 1911 A1 any day over a 9 mm!

[Paladin]

I'll take a 1911 A1 any day over a 9 mm!

Amen and me too, Dale.

Ray

[Open Range-19]

Lot of real knowledge presented in your comments, gents. Facts of shootings contradict stacks of magazine articles which were repeated as gospel for decades. The correct bullet in the proper place brings closure quicker.

[OLDE CUTLER]

Lot of real knowledge presented in your comments, gents. Facts of shootings contradict stacks of magazine articles which were repeated as gospel for decades. The correct bullet in the proper place brings closure quicker.

Absolutely, caliber is a minor factor compared to those two.

[Open Range-19]

Roger that, OC. Heart shot and lights out. Spine hits drop them but their looking at you when you arrive. Head shots are ugly. In my family one high speed .22 long rifle between the eyes was the norm on beef and hogs but results were pitiful as far as I’m concerned. A precisely placed bullet with adequate penetration from a center-fire works well.

[Open Range-19]

Forgot to mention double lung shots, results take longer so they travel a short distance if not pushed. Single lung hits even farther. Aorta shot, they drop in the front and snowplow with their hind legs a short distance.

[Tasky]

All that can really be said to anyone - regardless of whether they've had to shoot someone else, and regardless of weapon, calibre, conditions, circumstances or any other factor - is that there's no replacement for shot placement.

[Colonel26]

Great comments all.

Here’s yet another reason I prefer and carry a 1911… Our physical and ballistic characteristics match… fat and slow.

[Dinadan]

My only experience with a 1911 was about fifty years ago when my dad had one. I do seem to recall that when I used a 55 gallon drum for a target, if the bullet did not hit dead center then sometimes it would just leave a crease in the drum and bounce off. Maybe the Japanese soldier had something hard in his jacket! Surely there is a lot better ammo available now than back in WW2.

I could say that maybe a firearm designed over 110 years ago is not a great choice for self defense. But when I carry I always carry a revolver, often single action, not much changed from designs made 150 years ago. So I am not the one suggest getting something more modern.

[edge213]

I don't want to start a "fight" here, but to say a 1911 is worthless for defense is just plain silly.

[orvet]

Caliber alone has little bearing on stopping a threat, or animal, immediately. To have a bang flop, or a one shot stop to an aggressor you have to disrupt the central nervous system.

And then there are some targets that just don't go down easy, and keep coming no matter what you hit them with, or how many times.
A friend of mine was an M60 machine gunner in Vietnam. They had sappers coming through the wire and he hit a sapper with a burst from his M60. He said he could see the jungle behind the sapper through a hole the size of a basketball in his chest. But the guy kept coming and shot my friend with his AK. One of my friends buddies finished off the sapper.
Granted, sappers were often hyped up on speed or something and usually had tourniquets on their extremities to slow the blood loss should they be hit. It still doesn't explain how a human body with a hole the size of a basketball could continue to function.

Another interesting detail of the story, the sapper's bullet went in my friends left nipple, around his heart and exited towards his spine. Maybe it's not surprising that my friend is a pastor today.

[Colonel26]

Caliber alone has little bearing on stopping a threat, or animal, immediately. To have a bang flop, or a one shot stop to an aggressor you have to disrupt the central nervous system.

And then there are some targets that just don't go down easy, and keep coming no matter what you hit them with, or how many times.
A friend of mine was an M60 machine gunner in Vietnam. They had sappers coming through the wire and he hit a sapper with a burst from his M60. He said he could see the jungle behind the sapper through a hole the size of a basketball in his chest. But the guy kept coming and shot my friend with his AK. One of my friends buddies finished off the sapper.
Granted, sappers were often hyped up on speed or something and usually had tourniquets on their extremities to slow the blood loss should they be hit. It still doesn't explain how a human body with a hole the size of a basketball could continue to function.

Another interesting detail of the story, the sapper's bullet went in my friends left nipple, around his heart and exited towards his spine. Maybe it's not surprising that my friend is a pastor today.

WOW!

[Quick Steel]

I often recall listening to an Alaskan ranger of some sort who often had to search for wounded bears. He explained that he didn't think much of the big bore hand canons fishermen relied on for bear protection. His issue was that "We sometimes find the dead bear a good distance from the attack, but we always find the dead fisherman."

Apparently, the problem is that even if your major caliber bullet blows up the charging bear's heart he still has 20 to 30 seconds of blood pressure left to maul and chomp on his target. The Ranger's choice was a slug-filled shotgun.

[treefarmer]

WOW!
[/quote]

Is that you Bro. Wade? Good to see your post on the forum!
Treefarmer

[OLDE CUTLER]

The OP reminds me of a local story from a few years ago. A woman was attacked by a pit bull that had gotten loose. The owner hearing the commotion rushed outside to try to contain the dog, which he could not. He rushed back in the house and returned with a pistol and shot the dog 4 times, killing it. The shooter from that point on condemned that manufacturer, model, and caliber of pistol because it took 4 shots to kill the dog. Turns out of his 4 shots, one hit and went thru the loose skin hanging under the dogs neck, one punched a hole in the dog's ear, one missed completely, and one penetrate into the dog's vitals killing him instantly. Must be a gun/ caliber problem , right?