Factory Reject/Second Case Knives

[Jwboyd-1992]

Hello,

A topic that has interested me as of late is that of the existence of Case knives that have somehow slipped out of the factory in less than perfect condition, whether by mistake, or possibly in an employee's lunchbox.

I recently purchased a 1994 Hawkbill that appears to have made it out the door, despite not having its bolsters ground/polished, or a finishing edge ever having been put on the knife. The Case logo appears to have been ground from the tang, though part of the letter "C" is still visible. The "USA" and dots are still widely visible on the tang of the knife itself.

I was wondering if any of you more experienced collectors had ever stumbled across Case knives like this in the past?

[OLDE CUTLER]

Can you show some pictures? A picture is worth more than a thousand words when it comes to knives.

[just bob]

Hello,

A topic that has interested me as of late is that of the existence of Case knives that have somehow slipped out of the factory in less than perfect condition, whether by mistake, or possibly in an employee's lunchbox.

I recently purchased a 1994 Hawkbill that appears to have made it out the door, despite not having its bolsters ground/polished, or a finishing edge ever having been put on the knife. The Case logo appears to have been ground from the tang, though part of the letter "C" is still visible. The "USA" and dots are still widely visible on the tang of the knife itself.

I was wondering if any of you more experienced collectors had ever stumbled across Case knives like this in the past?

Somewhere on here there's an old post that says Case used to sell factory seconds in the gift shop located on the grounds in Bradford. I think that was in the 1970's. These would have been knives with minor defects. Not sure if they still do that or not, but from time to time you find Case blades at a knife show. Makes you think items still get out.

[Jwboyd-1992]

Here are a few pictures of the knife in question, pulled from the original Facebook group that I purchased the knife from. I can take some better photos tomorrow after I return home from a work trip that I am on.

As you can see from the photos, it appears that the bolsters were never finished, and the blade was never edged. This makes me think that this knife was rejected during the QC process, and might have been slipped out the door, so to speak. However, I am relatively new to collecting, and I'm looking to get the thoughts of those of you who are far more experienced and adept at knowing what you are looking at. Thanks!

[BIGHEAD]

That blade appears to have been repinned with a common nail. The pins used look nothing like that.

[Jwboyd-1992]

Bighead,

I appreciate your response.

That very well could be the case. I had previously found another photo on this forum relating to unfinished/lunchbox Case knives that showed a similarly styled ungrounded pin head, that many commented had the "waffle" pattern upon its head due to part of the production process, before being cut/ground flush and polished. I could be completely wrong on this, however, or could have misundBaghdad, I'll try to look up the earlier forum post that I am referencing in a bit.

[Jwboyd-1992]

BIGHEAD,

Hear is a link to a prior thread on here from 2015 that gave me the impression that this might be an unfinished factory reject.

viewtopic.php?p=479976&hilit=Unfinished ... fe#p479976

[knife7knut]

Here is a 640045R (for reject maybe?). Note pins. On this one, the backsprings aren't finished & it is almost impossible to open 2 of the blades. Tang stamp is ground away & shield has been removed. Definitely a lunchbox knife..

[edge213]

Here is a 640045R (for reject maybe?). Note pins. On this one, the backsprings aren't finished & it is almost impossible to open 2 of the blades. Tang stamp is ground away & shield has been removed. Definitely a lunchbox knife..

The "R" on this one would indicate it has a bail.

[Mumbleypeg]

The “R” in a Case pattern number is their abbreviation for “ring”, meaning the knife has a bail. It does NOT stand for “reject”. The knife you’ve pictured is another Camillus-made knife, made under contract for Case. Maybe Camillus sold them as seconds? Or they were bought by the pound as part of their bankruptcy liquidation?

In over 50 years of knife collecting, the majority of it Case, I’ve never personally in-hand encountered a Case “factory second”. I’ve read that during the late ‘80’s-early ‘90’s during the time Parker owned Case they were so cash-strapped they sold some factory seconds. I’ve ever personally seen one but have seen pictures of altered knives from that time period claimed to be factory seconds. Anything not from that time, I’d be very skeptical were “seconds” from the Case factory.

Every time I see someone speculate about a “lunchbox” knife I have to chuckle. Why would a cutlery employee, having access to put any knife the factory made in their “lunchbox” and risk being fired or disciplined by their employer, steal a cobbled, unfinished or otherwise non-standard knife? Why not just take a good one? If caught the result would likely be the same. So-called “lunchbox” knives are a convenient way for sellers or collectors to justify, explain away or otherwise legitimize a cobbled piece of junk as a collectable, when actual collector value is nil. JMO

That ought to set the natives on the warpath.

Ken

[knife7knut]

My inference of the ''R'' standing for REJECT was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers with it & the ''lunchbox'' reference

[edge213]

My inference of the ''R'' standing for REJECT was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers with it & the ''lunchbox'' reference

No need to apologize. I thought you were serious about the "R" is why I posted.
I didn't want someone to read it and think it might be true.

[edge213]

The “R” in a Case pattern number is their abbreviation for “ring”, meaning the knife has a bail. It does NOT stand for “reject”. The knife you’ve pictured is another Camillus-made knife, made under contract for Case. Maybe Camillus sold them as seconds? Or they were bought by the pound as part of their bankruptcy liquidation?

In over 50 years of knife collecting, the majority of it Case, I’ve never personally in-hand encountered a Case “factory second”. I’ve read that during the late ‘80’s-early ‘90’s during the time Parker owned Case they were so cash-strapped they sold some factory seconds. I’ve ever personally seen one but have seen pictures of altered knives from that time period claimed to be factory seconds. Anything not from that time, I’d be very skeptical were “seconds” from the Case factory.

Every time I see someone speculate about a “lunchbox” knife I have to chuckle. Why would a cutlery employee, having access to put any knife the factory made in their “lunchbox” and risk being fired or disciplined by their employer, steal a cobbled, unfinished or otherwise non-standard knife? Why not just take a good one? If caught the result would likely be the same. So-called “lunchbox” knives are a convenient way for sellers or collectors to justify, explain away or otherwise legitimize a cobbled piece of junk as a collectable, when actual collector value is nil. JMO

That ought to set the natives on the warpath.

Ken

Ken, I agree 100% with you on "lunch box" knives.
I have this discussion occasionally with a collector friend when he says "could be a lunch box knife".

[knifeaholic]

Both the OP hawkbill and the later posted 640045R are contract knives made by Camillus. The checkering that you see on the blade pins is from the factory when the pins were peened by a drop hammer. This means that each knife was declared a "second" and pulled off the line prior to final finishing.

[Jeepergeo]

The “R” in a Case pattern number is their abbreviation for “ring”, meaning the knife has a bail. It does NOT stand for “reject”. The knife you’ve pictured is another Camillus-made knife, made under contract for Case. Maybe Camillus sold them as seconds? Or they were bought by the pound as part of their bankruptcy liquidation?

In over 50 years of knife collecting, the majority of it Case, I’ve never personally in-hand encountered a Case “factory second”. I’ve read that during the late ‘80’s-early ‘90’s during the time Parker owned Case they were so cash-strapped they sold some factory seconds. I’ve ever personally seen one but have seen pictures of altered knives from that time period claimed to be factory seconds. Anything not from that time, I’d be very skeptical were “seconds” from the Case factory.

Every time I see someone speculate about a “lunchbox” knife I have to chuckle. Why would a cutlery employee, having access to put any knife the factory made in their “lunchbox” and risk being fired or disciplined by their employer, steal a cobbled, unfinished or otherwise non-standard knife? Why not just take a good one? If caught the result would likely be the same. So-called “lunchbox” knives are a convenient way for sellers or collectors to justify, explain away or otherwise legitimize a cobbled piece of junk as a collectable, when actual collector value is nil. JMO

That ought to set the natives on the warpath.

Ken

^^^This makes great sense.

Would a Case factory second, if one were to exist and be verifiable, make the knife more or less valuable?

I ask in the context of minted coins and currency where defective coins and currency from the mint or printer, if they slip out, which is rare, can be quite valuable...leading counterfeitters to go to great lengths to tamper with perfect coins/currency to replicate the defect.

[edge213]

No matter the brand seconds are worth less.

[Mumbleypeg]

Unlike coins and stamps, knives having manufacturing defects rarely increase in value. (The most famous exception being the Case 6111-1/2 having been stamped with an extra "1" in the pattern number, making it 61111-1/2. A limited number of those "escaped" into circulation. Collectors subsequently drove up the value on the escapees). Other than that it’s not uncommon at all to see knives having double-struck stamps, crooked or upside down shields, etc which have no increased value. They make perfectly good users, and there are some who collect them. Pay more for one at your own risk.

Ken

[RedRaiderRick]

What's the significance of the Case designation, "second cut"?

[Mumbleypeg]

What's the significance of the Case designation, "second cut"?

Sometimes pieces of stag to be used as handle covers are too thick, therefore has to be sawed into thinner pieces. This results in some interior material which if thick enough to also make into handle covers, rather than scrap them they are sometimes jigged, dyed and attached to knives. Those are called second cut handle covers.

Most often the term refers to second cut stag. I have some that are second cut but the pattern begins with a “6”, so that drives my belief they bone. They might be second cut stag simply marked with the 6 handle designator. Both antlers and bone being typically round, it seems to me they both have to be sawed into flat-sided (at least one side flat) pieces.

Second cut stag of course no longer has the roughly grooved natural “bark-like” appearance outer stag typically has. Being jigged, it looks more like jigged bone. Being aware of the collector penchant for different and unique features, Case has astutely marketed “second cut” stag and bone as such.

It has nothing to do with so-called “factory second” knives.

Ken

[Cleancut]

I find the opportunity to utilize a knife without worrying about a degradation in value is a plus that the factory second knife offers. Many
that I have seen from back in the early eighties are tough to figure out what made them a second. I have attached a photo of five Congress
knives. All have a small 'x' stamped on the word Case. These five knives are really very nice.

[Cleancut]

Here is a photo of two blades that are beautiful, as is the rest of these lockbacs. The drawback to the lockback is the obvious pins. These are not
supposed to be visible. This is what has made them seconds. Many seconds are almost indiscernible. Some of the photos that are being posted are of
somebody's junk they messed with. Also attached is a photo of nearly 50 Case seconds. They are all worth the job they were intended to do - cut.

[cody6268]

I didn't even know Case let seconds get out. You just never hear of them or see the things. Most other knife companies in America usually have an open house sale on their grounds once or twice a year. Some even sell them online, and I suspect Utica sends theirs off to auction in crate-loads given how many sellers I see with them in bulk. I buy a lot of them, usually only direct, and also only if the savings are good. I've bought Camillus and Schrade ones only as curiosities. Some are garbage (as are almost all my Utica seconds), some are safety hazards (most of my Bear seconds), others have minor problems (a Camillus 711 I have only has a pin crack), and others indiscernible (my Spyderco Para 3 and Native 5 were bought from Spyderco direct in 2020 during their first online seconds sale, and to this date, I can't see what's wrong with the Para 3, and the Native 5 blade would strike the frame--which was fixed the first time I sharpened it).

That is until I received one from Bladebuddy in this year's POS Exchange.

It's a 1977 5233 in stag that has had "CASE XX" and most of "STAINLESS" ground off. A stunning knife with awesome stag that really doesn't have any discernable problems. However, it was from the "Blue" Scroll Set, not "Silver". I think it was deemed a second due to the missing blue ink.

As is with all my '70s and older Cases, quality is awesome. This knife snaps twice as hard as the '90s 6333 I EDC.

[Lansky1]

No matter the brand seconds are worth less.

To a collector perhaps.

[edge213]

No matter the brand seconds are worth less.

To a collector perhaps.

Are you saying to a non collector, seconds are worth the same as non-seconds?

[Reverand]

If you want to carry the knife as a user, and the cause for second quality is simply something cosmetic, then I would think it would be worth about the same as a used First Quality Case.