A Different Ethical Question

[QTCut5]

If when you were younger and less wise you felt fear and paranoia and didn't like it, and then got rid of the knives that were the source of that fear and paranoia,...
In my youth I knowingly purchased and collected illegal autos. I had NO fear or paranoia back then because
1) I was young and reckless and felt I was clever enough to circumvent the law and get away with it. And I actually did like it because despite the potential personal danger I willingly subjected myself to, I knew I wasn't hurting anybody else or putting them in any danger as a result of my choices and actions. Furthermore, it was exciting and thrilling to consider myself a clandestine "criminal", an "outlaw" living in constant danger in defiance of and able to outwit the authorities! (Ah, the folly of youth!)
2) I had practically nothing to lose even if I were to get caught, so in my mind the risk was relatively small compared to the greater benefit of owning a bunch of cool, albeit illegal, switchblades. I didn't get rid of the knives while I was still young, that only happened many years later when my circumstances changed. I grew up, matured, took on responsibilities and made commitments to others whose lives could be affected by my actions. I became less self-centered and more aware of my civic duty to obey laws for the greater good of society at the expense of my own selfish desires even though I disagreed with some of the laws that I believed impinged upon my personal freedoms and right to own whatever type of knife I desired.


...then what happened to flip you back to ignoring the fear and paranoia such that you again started keeping autos around? I don't understand how you deal with the fear and paranoia now and why it doesn't bother you as it used to...just trying to understand what the thought process was and how you deal with it now better than you dealt with it then?

Basically it's a simple matter of degree. As an older and ostensibly wiser, more responsible, less selfish, socially-conscious adult who owned a lot of illegal knives, I felt a much higher degree of fear and paranoia. Once I had disposed of the bulk of my autos (I had quite a few) my level of fear decreased commensurately. I kept only two because even though I still knew they were illegal, I felt that even if they were discovered by the authorities the penalty for owning only two knives would be significantly less than if I owned a few dozen knives--much the same way that getting a speeding ticket for going 10 mph over the posted speed limit results in a lower fine than getting a ticket for going 80 mph over the limit. Both actions are unequivocally illegal, but the degree and consequences are significantly different. I would venture to bet that most anyone would feel much less concerned about driving 10 mph over the speed limit than they would feel driving 80 mph over the speed limit despite the fact that they're still breaking the law in both instances.

I hope that sheds a bit more light on my youthful thinking and actions and my subsequent change of mindset and actions over the course of many years collecting and then disposing of my automatic knives as a more mature adult as well as my justification for keeping the two I currently own.

[jerryd6818]

AUTOMATIC KNIVES are ILLEGAL IN ILLINOIS UNLESS YOU CARRY A VALID FOID (FIREARMS OWNERS IDENTIFICATION) CARD!

I wasn't aware of that. I remember back in the early 1950's before Illinois declared them illegal because of a movie.

[Ivoryman]

If when you were younger and less wise you felt fear and paranoia and didn't like it, and then got rid of the knives that were the source of that fear and paranoia,...
In my youth I knowingly purchased and collected illegal autos. I had NO fear or paranoia back then because
1) I was young and reckless and felt I was clever enough to circumvent the law and get away with it. And I actually did like it because despite the potential personal danger I willingly subjected myself to, I knew I wasn't hurting anybody else or putting them in any danger as a result of my choices and actions. Furthermore, it was exciting and thrilling to consider myself a clandestine "criminal", an "outlaw" living in constant danger in defiance of and able to outwit the authorities! (Ah, the folly of youth!)
2) I had practically nothing to lose even if I were to get caught, so in my mind the risk was relatively small compared to the greater benefit of owning a bunch of cool, albeit illegal, switchblades. I didn't get rid of the knives while I was still young, that only happened many years later when my circumstances changed. I grew up, matured, took on responsibilities and made commitments to others whose lives could be affected by my actions. I became less self-centered and more aware of my civic duty to obey laws for the greater good of society at the expense of my own selfish desires even though I disagreed with some of the laws that I believed impinged upon my personal freedoms and right to own whatever type of knife I desired.


...then what happened to flip you back to ignoring the fear and paranoia such that you again started keeping autos around? I don't understand how you deal with the fear and paranoia now and why it doesn't bother you as it used to...just trying to understand what the thought process was and how you deal with it now better than you dealt with it then?

Basically it's a simple matter of degree. As an older and ostensibly wiser, more responsible, less selfish, socially-conscious adult who owned a lot of illegal knives, I felt a much higher degree of fear and paranoia. Once I had disposed of the bulk of my autos (I had quite a few) my level of fear decreased commensurately. I kept only two because even though I still knew they were illegal, I felt that even if they were discovered by the authorities the penalty for owning only two knives would be significantly less than if I owned a few dozen knives--much the same way that getting a speeding ticket for going 10 mph over the posted speed limit results in a lower fine than getting a ticket for going 80 mph over the limit. Both actions are unequivocally illegal, but the degree and consequences are significantly different. I would venture to bet that most anyone would feel much less concerned about driving 10 mph over the speed limit than they would feel driving 80 mph over the speed limit despite the fact that they're still breaking the law in both instances.

I hope that sheds a bit more light on my youthful thinking and actions and my subsequent change of mindset and actions over the course of many years collecting and then disposing of my automatic knives as a more mature adult as well as my justification for keeping the two I currently own.

Gotcha Bro, makes sense. Not that is has to make sense, but I can see your point there. I understand the thrill of the underground, flouting the rules of convention and little to lose personally compared to being older and having others in the family involved now. Thanks for the explanation and hope the HI Gestapo never comes a knocking looking for your autos. That would be a shame. But I would bet that with your record the consequences wouldn't be that big of a deal. Considering your history with them and lack of offences there would be a good case for serious leniency in sentencing you. Suspended sentence or probation maybe, probably not serious jail time bud. You can call me to testify for character witness and I'll ignore all the bad things I know about you and only testify to actions of the upstanding citizen that you are for the judge. Plead dramatically for leniency for you.

[1967redrider]

AUTOMATIC KNIVES are ILLEGAL IN ILLINOIS UNLESS YOU CARRY A VALID FOID (FIREARMS OWNERS IDENTIFICATION) CARD!

I wasn't aware of that. I remember back in the early 1950's before Illinois declared them illegal because of a movie.

What caliber is your knife, Jerry?

[Reverand]

QTCut5, i had made a post earlier on this thread, but I must jave hit a wrong button and lost it because it never showed.
After several other posts, it would have been redundant, anyway.
I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed this discussion. I believe that it is good and healthy to stop and question why we make some choices that we make, and good also to engage other people in discussions that help us all to think a little more.

[bestgear]

Q - In the end, we all, as individuals, are called to decide what we consider to be morally right and wrong. It is part of what makes us human that we cannot give away this decision, and let others decide for us. Each one of us needs to decide for themselves which actions they want to consider morally right or wrong, even if this goes against the laws of the state.

Beginning with Adam and Eve and that tree with the forbidden fruits, becoming truly human has always been about claiming the right to decide for oneself what one considers a permissible action. Moral autonomy and the freedom to decide for oneself is the essence of what makes us human, and is the basis for all that is valuable about us.

No law can take this away from us.

[Madmarco]

I also very much enjoyed reading both of your tutorials, guys.
You both stated your cases in a mature adult manner without any bickering name calling or any other derogatory actions, as well as staying on point, what a difference from what's been going on lately.
It was most refreshing to read that when you, I-man, was having trouble catching the drift of ~Q~'s reasoning, how ~Q~ patiently re-explained his feelings and motives without any obvious frustration or rancor for needing to explain himself more than once, only adults know how to conduct themselves in such a manner.
Both of your many life examples were interesting and totally relative to the issue at hand, and gave us all some insight into your true characters, not that most of us didn't know this already.
In my opinion, the coolest part was that you two remained tight friends even though some of the material could have been misconstrued due to the communication coming through your computers where many times there will be misunderstandings since we can't see each other face to face. I could site numerous examples where sarcasm or even humor was mistaken as anger or rudeness because of the way it appeared in type, and if you don't believe me just ask me and Kim!
I particularly liked I-man's dissertation of how he feels about certain controversial issues such as Nazis, until I read that I couldn't ever understand an individual's fascination with that subject, I always felt they were being callous of other people's feelings, but I can now see it as simply an interest in past history that doesn't involve anything sinister or cruel. That issue has been a long time sore spot with me, but after this it no longer is, thanks I-man! Your comments on your past experiences were equally enjoyable, ~Q~, so thanks to you too!
Well done gentlemen, your conversation has really got me thinking, and that's no small feat!

[Killgar]

In my opinion this is a perfect example of over-thinking something.

We're talking about possessing knives. Knives. Not whether or not you should cheat on your wife, or whether or not you should keep a gift that you know is stolen property. Knives.

I don't apply morality to knives. As long as you didn't acquire them through dishonest means, as long as you know they don't rightfully belong to someone else, and as long as you aren't hurting people with them, I don't think choosing to posses a knife has anything to do with morality. Choosing to own switchblades where they are illegal doesn't make a person bad or immoral anymore than choosing not to own them makes a person good or moral.

Whether or not a bunch of idiot lawmakers choose to pass stupid, irrational knife laws has no bearing on my morality or ethics. And my decision to violate those stupid irrational laws has no bearing on my quality as a human being.

As long as I'm not hurting anyone, as long as I'm not endangering anyone, what I choose to posses in the privacy of my own home is no business of the government, the cops, my neighbors, or anyone else I don't feel like telling.

[QTCut5]

In my opinion this is a perfect example of over-thinking something.

You don't know the half of it! Actually, for me, this is not over-thinking, this is how I think all the time. You probably wouldn't want to read my posts when I am really over-thinking some relatively minor topic!

[jw517]

Are you trying to steal my job? I’m the village idiot.

[Ivoryman]

In my opinion this is a perfect example of over-thinking something.

We're talking about possessing knives. Knives. Not whether or not you should cheat on your wife, or whether or not you should keep a gift that you know is stolen property. Knives.

I don't apply morality to knives. As long as you didn't acquire them through dishonest means, as long as you know they don't rightfully belong to someone else, and as long as you aren't hurting people with them, I don't think choosing to posses a knife has anything to do with morality. Choosing to own switchblades where they are illegal doesn't make a person bad or immoral anymore than choosing not to own them makes a person good or moral.

Whether or not a bunch of idiot lawmakers choose to pass stupid, irrational knife laws has no bearing on my morality or ethics. And my decision to violate those stupid irrational laws has no bearing on my quality as a human being.

As long as I'm not hurting anyone, as long as I'm not endangering anyone, what I choose to posses in the privacy of my own home is no business of the government, the cops, my neighbors, or anyone else I don't feel like telling.

You completely misunderstood the issue. It's not the morality of knives, or "stupid laws," or "idiots who made them." Completely off. It's the morality of obeying laws or not and what the ethical considerations are involved. I don't think discussions of morals and ethics related to knife laws or any law is ever bad. It's great to consider both sides, others opinions, weigh the argument, exercise your gray matter, open your mind to opposing and differing thoughts, views, behavior, and discussing things civilly. The sad thing is dismissing and dissing on others who are trying to reason and logically assess laws like this is not helpful or furthering understanding or evaluating appropriate behavior. It's not like cheating on your wife because everyone knows that's wrong and what will happen and how that affects us personally. They don't all know what is right or wrong about lesser automatic knife laws or obedience and support of them vs dismissing and ignoring them and the consequences to each others morals. There is so little of that in the world that I applaud the OP and all those who constructively contributed to this thread. It's a great thread and discussion. Thanks Q for starting it up. I learned more about fellow members views and attitudes and moral positions than any other post I've read. It was the best discussion I have had on AAPK bar none. It's a joy to back and forth with people far away who I really don't know much about and hear their take, their behavior, their attitudes, their feelings about something and how they defend their actions and choices as a result. Overthinking is better than the opposite in my view and if it's really overthinking it then what is the purpose of adding your thoughts to the discussion? You're thereby contributing to the overthinking. But I think you couldn't resist chiming in because it's a great topic and an interesting discussion that sucked you right in like it did me. There is great value to becoming an autonomous moral agent and knowing what that means and what it demands from adherents to moral standards, our personal choices, and what we consider right or wrong in our subsequent behavior. Free society depends on that kind of engagement. It requires it. It elevates peoples lives and the self-assessment of the best course of action in such moral dilemmas. It expands views and encourages deep thinking instead of superficially skimming over the issues.

I also very much enjoyed reading both of your tutorials, guys.
You both stated your cases in a mature adult manner without any bickering name calling or any other derogatory actions, as well as staying on point, what a difference from what's been going on lately.
It was most refreshing to read that when you, I-man, was having trouble catching the drift of ~Q~'s reasoning, how ~Q~ patiently re-explained his feelings and motives without any obvious frustration or rancor for needing to explain himself more than once, only adults know how to conduct themselves in such a manner.
Both of your many life examples were interesting and totally relative to the issue at hand, and gave us all some insight into your true characters, not that most of us didn't know this already.
In my opinion, the coolest part was that you two remained tight friends even though some of the material could have been misconstrued due to the communication coming through your computers where many times there will be misunderstandings since we can't see each other face to face. I could site numerous examples where sarcasm or even humor was mistaken as anger or rudeness because of the way it appeared in type, and if you don't believe me just ask me and Kim!
I particularly liked I-man's dissertation of how he feels about certain controversial issues such as Nazis, until I read that I couldn't ever understand an individual's fascination with that subject, I always felt they were being callous of other people's feelings, but I can now see it as simply an interest in past history that doesn't involve anything sinister or cruel. That issue has been a long time sore spot with me, but after this it no longer is, thanks I-man! Your comments on your past experiences were equally enjoyable, ~Q~, so thanks to you too!
Well done gentlemen, your conversation has really got me thinking, and that's no small feat!

On the other hand, I had to comment on your post Marco because what you said was fabulous. And thanks so much for chiming in, you don't know what that did for me. You learned something and looked at something differently by reading our posts and entering the discussion constructively. So did I big time and Amen. You didn't belittle our posts or diss and find fault or add red herrings and I applaud you for that. So refreshing to hear someone actually learned something or benefitted from the topic as did I. I can't remember the last time I considered my actions as carefully and tried to support them. Or tried to see others viewpoints and understand where they are coming from. It took all of you individuals out of the realm of nameless, faceless posters and one liners, into the world of thoughtful fellow brothers and sisters discussing decent issues with considerate discourse and respect and appreciation for how we each view and approach moral and ethical dilemmas and how that affects our choices and behaviors. The value of that cannot be overstated and is not overthinking it. I gained a bunch of brotherly love and appreciation and esteem for all those members on this post who contributed constructively and expanded my views and thought processes and have to thank you and them. Can't recall when a thread made such a difference to me as this one did. Totally elevated my consciousness and gave me a new flavor and admiration and respect for those who posted their views with such candor and decency. The world needs more of this, the halls of congress needs more of this, our schools, our neighborhoods, our government, our families, our marriages, our everything needs discussions like this and I'm better for it and so glad to be part of it and have this kind of interaction with my fellow beings. I can't say enough good about what has happened here and how much better the comradery is here than in the average every day remarks I usually see. Hats off to Q for starting it and every one who contributed. Fascinating discussion and excellent points all around. So thankful for the experience.

[QTCut5]

Well said. I was thinking the same thing myself but was hesitant to post any more because I didn't want to get into a debate over how much thinking is considered "over-thinking" which is the direction I saw this thread heading in. You expressed my thoughts exactly and did so better than I could have myself. Kudos right back atcha, brother!

[RedRaiderRick]

Become a reserve first responder and autos become legal to possess.

[RedRaiderRick]

Don't others face a similar dilemma when ordering an auto and have to check the box saying it's OK to ship even though they don't meet an exclusion?

It's not a Federal document, seller is the shipper not the buyer.

[QTCut5]

I was faced with that dilemma recently and thought about it long and hard before I lied and said I was a member of the military.

Lying saying that I was part of the service was what made me feel icky, not buying or owning the knife.

Thanks for sharing that, Kimzilla. The fact that you had to think "long and hard" before acting and then felt "icky" afterwards shows that you have a moral compass that you consciously chose to betray. I am neither accusing nor judging you in any way; it's essentially the same thing I did myself many times when I knowingly broke the law by purchasing illegal switchblades. In my case, I never actually had to lie in writing (I was able to find dealers who used a disclaimer stating the buyer is responsible for knowing and complying with local laws prior to purchasing) but I was fully aware that what I was doing was wrong or ethically questionable. The first few times I did it, I was bothered, worried, concerned, apprehensive, etc., but it got easier to ignore my conscience after getting away with my "crimes" and suffering no negative legal consequences.

It wasn't until I moved to Hawaii and became aware of the draconian punishments I would face if caught with a huge collection of illegal contraband in my possession that I decided the personal satisfaction or "reward" of owning the knives was not worth the potential legal risk of getting caught. It was really just a question of scale, i.e., I was willing to keep a small number (2) which was still illegal, but I was uncomfortable owning 30 or 40 in much the same way I can exceed the posted speed limit by 5-7 mph without much concern but I am uncomfortable going 30 or 40 mph over.

[Ivoryman]

I was faced with that dilemma recently and thought about it long and hard before I lied and said I was a member of the military. I'd never had to do that before. Some websites just flat out won't ship autos to my state at all. Anyway, I told an "itty bitty" lie in order to get my knife, which IS legal to own in NJ, but not carry or actually use unless it's in self defense inside of your own home.

Lying saying that I was part of the service was what made me feel icky, not buying or owning the knife.

Hell of a lot easier to get forgiveness than permission I always say. Words to live by.

[Ivoryman]

The first few times I did it, I was bothered, worried, concerned, apprehensive, etc., but it got easier to ignore my conscience after getting away with my "crimes" and suffering no negative legal consequences.

You sure all that bother, worry, concern, apprehension etc. wasn't somehow the result of a guilty conscience? I don't know Bro, could be wrong for sure and I'm not pointing fingers or judging or calling anyone out, but that to me sounds exactly like what guilt means. Hey I'm no wordsmith and didn't look up the definition for this discussion, but that has the ring of guilt to me. If I felt that way anyway, I'd call it guilt. Gotta stick the needle in ya somewhere bud. Just yanking the chain ya know.

[Mario]

This is why if I ever move out of my state, I’ll only move to a place that allows me to keep my autos.

The way I see it with switchblade laws, I think most people go by how aggressively enforced they are and how big of a legal risk acquiring, possessing or carrying one is. If they’re in your home with you, you’re the only person who knows you have them (assuming you lived alone), you don’t tell anyone, and you’re an otherwise law abiding citizen who doesn’t break any other laws, I say you have nothing to worry about. If from an ethical standpoint you don’t want to break any law even if it’s a stupid, outdated and rarely enforced law, I can respect that.

In my state of Pennsylvania, autos became fully legal to possess and carry at the beginning of the year. Before that we couldn’t carry them and could only technically own them if we had them only for “curio” purposes, i.e. part of a collection. I had been buying and collecting them for a few years before they became legal. People would sell them at flea markets and gun shows all the time with cops in attendance and nobody ever got in trouble. There were even some antique shops that sold them and some novelty/gift shops that sold knives would have them as well. Whenever I bought them at these places, I always made sure to put them in the trunk when transporting them home. Now that they’re legal, I’ve been carrying them and transporting them like I do with all other knives. When I buy knives in a shop, I always put them in the backseat of the car away from the front passenger’s seat.

[jw517]

We did the same with margarine in the 1960s. Illegal in Wisconsin,but we smuggled it in from Mn. Kept the drapes closed while keeping a eye out for the lipid police.

[Ivoryman]

We did the same with margarine in the 1960s. Illegal in Wisconsin,but we smuggled it in from Mn. Kept the drapes closed while keeping a eye out for the lipid police.

That's #%^&3&! hilarious. Rolling in the isles material. Goooooooooooood one big time.

[jw517]

Thanks! I’m funnier than I am bright. The margarine thing is true though. Being the “ Dairy State”, we could not buy it here.

[jw517]

Yes,you’re right! When someone tells you you can’t have it,that makes it all the more desirable though. I think it was Olio .(spelling)

[QTCut5]

We did the same with margarine in the 1960s. Illegal in Wisconsin,but we smuggled it in from Mn.

Do you happen to know WHY margarine was outlawed in Wisconsin in the 1960s?

I'm guessing it probably had more to do with protecting the WI dairy industry than out of a concern for public health. But I am curious as to how it was presented to the public.

The reason I ask is because I think that using laws and government to protect an industry, i.e., interfere in the free market to give legal advantage to a particular sector by outlawing a competitor, is different than using government to protect the citizens from harmful products.

In the case of the switchblade ban, it was presented as a law designed to protect citizens from a dangerous product (although we all know it was actually a ploy to score political points), not a law designed to protect companies making different types of cutlery from losing market share to automatic knives.

I feel the ethical considerations to the consumers are therefore different between these two distinct laws. Nevertheless, the margarine example goes to the core of the ethical question: Can you still be an ethical person when consciously and intentionally breaking the law, regardless of the reason for which the law was enacted?

[jw517]

I think it was just to help the dairy farmers and the states image. I don’t know? All I know is my uncle ,who rode in the C&NW railway caboose between here and the Twin Cities brought some from time to time.

[1967redrider]

I can tolerate almond and oat milk in something (coffee, cereal, etc), that's about it.