Western Pocket Knife Conundrum

[zzyzzogeton]

Okay, as per the initial post in the sticky, H.N. (Harvey Nixon) Platts started Western States Cutlery in Boulder Colorado after he moved there in August of 1911. That is held as gospel due to be so stated in The Knife Makers Who Went West by Harlon Platts, the founder's grandson. I'm pretty sure that's true as most folks do know their own family history, at least when it comes to moving.

Every thing I have ever seen indicates or states emphatically that Western States Cutlery started AFTER H.N. Platts got to Boulder.

And now THESE pop up...

First, a page from a catalog put out by the Lockwood-Taylor Hardware Company (Cleveland OH) dated January 01, 1901, over 10 years before the founding of WSC in Boulder. The 3rd and 4th knives are shown stamped "WESTERN CUTLERY CO." and the 5th knife is just stamped "WESTERN".



And then 3 pages from the 1901 Logan-Gregg Hardware Company (Pittsburgh PA) catalog - the first 2 have knives with some form of WESTERN stamp, and the 3rd page has knives that LOOK like Western Knives from the 1919 Western catalog.








So, was Mr Platts already running a "Western Cutlery Company" 10 year before he moved west and started Western States Cutlery Company? Pittsburgh and Cleveland could easily have gotten knives from a company being run by H.N. where C. Platts Sons was in operation in PA. But there is no documentation of that speculation, so....

Or was there another Western Cutlery Company run by someone somewhere else that went defunct prior to Mr. Platts' start-up out in Boulder in late 1911?

Prior to these 2 sets of catalog pages showing up on fleabay, I had never even SEEN an indication of ANY Western Cutlery Company mentioned being in existence prior to late 1911. I emailed both sellers when I saw the offerings. Both responded that they were dating the pages based on the date of the catalog printed on the title page of the catalog being strip sold.

[knifeaholic]

There was a WESTERN CUTLERY CO in Solingen Germany. Many German cutlery firms used American sounding brand names for knives made for export to the USA.

[wlf]

Western Cutlery Co pressed stag double spring whittler. Pretty sure pressed horn to imitate stag.

I have never that handle material on an American manufactured knife. I think because of the tariff on manufactured goods. Real stag was probably cheaper, as raw material.

[zzyzzogeton]

Great. Makes sense to me now.

I'm way more into fixed blades and only dabble with certain folders.

This is another one of those "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" situations.

[tongueriver]

I'm way more into fixed blades and only dabble with certain folders.

I am more interested in the fixies from Western as well, but do have a few folders. I read in the BOOK that they made their first fixie in 1928. I am pretty sure that Platts was receiving knives from back East long before that to sell; I have owned (and may still if I can find it) (Edit: it's gone) a fixed blade from Western States with the older construction method, which looks pretty much exactly like the old Kabars of that time. I don't think he would have gone from 1911 to 1928 without selling fixed blades. I often see the 1911 figure, but he said that their first building to make THEIR OWN MANUFACTURED knives did not go up until the close of the war.

[zzyzzogeton]

Yes, they had plans to start making their own knives, but then the US joined in on WW1 and they had to wait until after the war. H.N. Platts' eldest son Harlow was an engineer in the US Army and was serving in France. H.N. built his first building in 1913. Offices and storage was on the ground floor and the 2nd floor was reserved for future manufacturing. Manufacturing began in 1919 after Harlon returned from England after completing a course in metallography in Sheffield after the war ended,

According to TKMWWW, the first pocket knives sold by Western State's salesmen were made by a laundry list of eastern knife makers/suppliers.

One can ASSUME that the knives contracted in 1911 and 1912 were stamped Western States but there is no PROOF they were so stamped. The first stated WS stamped knives were those made by W.R. Case & Sons starting in 1913. Russ Case made the knives to fulfill payment for the stock H.N. had sold to Russ to fund his move west.

I agree with Cal that it is highly unlikely that H.N. did not sell any fixed blades between 1911 and 1928. 1928 is just when they started MAKING fixed blades. The first ones sold were probably "off the shelf" models of the supplying companies' offerings, followed quickly by the same models being made with Western States' very complicated "Sharp" logo engraved on the blades.

According to Gunsil, the resident expert on pre-1960s Kabars, the fixed blades Western sold from 1911 to 1927 were made by Kabar, Case, Marbles and probably others. I have an early Western that is a Marble's Ideal model in all but the stamp, as well as a couple of others that look just like early Kabar models.

[tongueriver]

Great info, ZZ; you da man when it comes to Boulder knives.

[tongueriver]

Pics.

[zzyzzogeton]

Cal,

Referring to the top picture only,

The top knife is an L36KG. It came out in the summer of 1941 and was "produced" only for about 6 months, explaining why it it relatively scarce. Probably only 1 or 2 production runs at the most.

The second knife is a 1936 vintage L36.

The 1936 offerings included an L36K which was the same knife, but with a "conventional" half guard AND the bird head pommel like that of the L36KG, which Western had introduced in 1931 on a couple of models.

The 1941 offerings also still included the 1936 L36K.

So in summary,
1936 - L36K and L36
1941 - L36K and L36KG

The 2 model year L36K knives were more or less the same as the L36s of the 1950s and 1960s, until the calf foot pommel was introduced.

I have never figured out WHY there is a "K" at the end of the model number, while the G is ASSUMED to be representing the heavy brass guard.

[zzyzzogeton]

For the 2nd/3rd pictures, assuming they were really sold as a set, this is one of those "lost" items. The sheath hints that they were sold originally as a set, assuming it's not a "frankenset", i.e., a set someone cobbled together.

Had this set been produced in the late 50s or early 60s, the set would have been marketed as the

P6610

P for phenolic plastic handle, P66 for the knife and P10 for the hatchet.

The problem with that is that Western didn't start marketing the knives (and presumably hatchets) as P28, P48A, P48B until 1955. Prior to that the "P" knives were the 48BGG, 48BAP, 48CAP and 28CAP and had no model numbers on them. Sadly, Western chose not to include any catalog pages in TKMWWW for their 1946 to 1949 offerings, so we have no concrete info on these products in the book.

I hope to someday start back up my project of trundling through all the sporting magazines of the 1940s and 1950s looking at Kabar and Western ads in the University of Texas - Austin's Perry-Casteneda Library's collection of 400K+ magazines.

A reference to the patent number on the hatchet GENERALLY means pre-1953/54, so 1948 to 1952ish.

Since I can't see the stamp on the knife, I'll wing it. If it has the patent number on it, same era. If it ha a model number on the pile side ricasso, it is a frankenset. Could we get a knife stamp pic, please.

If the knife has a model number on the pile side ricasso,it is post-1954/55ish.

Some "10" hatchets have a model number on them, e.g., L10, F10 or W10. If they do, post-1955. Knives with model numbers on the PILE side are 1955 to 1967. Hatchets are 1955 to 1976

The F14 hatchet NEVER had a model number on it. There was NEVER an L14 or W14 made at the factory for public sale.

[zzyzzogeton]

IN the 4th picture, these are kinda guesses based on apparent length. The first model listed is the gut guess. Actual blade lengths are need to identify 100%.

From top to bottom – (all 4 are pre-WW2)
G46-4 --- IF BL = 4-1/4” G46-5 IF BL = 5” 1934 to 1941
G46-5 --- IF BL = 5” G46-6 IF BL = 6” 1934 to 1941
L43 – 1934 to 1941
643 or 543 – IF Bone Stag handles – 643 IF genuine buckhorn handles – 543 --- – 1934 to 1941

Note that I say 1934 to 1941. Everyone puts 1931 as the date of any Western knife with a reference to the patent number.

That is WRONG.

15 December 1931 is when Western APPLIED for the patent.

Knives made in December 1931 to late 1932 or early 1933 were stamped

PATENT APPLIED FOR or PAT APPL FOR or PAT APP FOR depending on blade width

Knives made from sometime in either late 1932 / early 1933 to late 1933 / early 1934 were stamped

PAT PEND or PAT PENDING

The patent number 1967479 was granted 24 July 1934

After this date, initially knives were stamped either with a simple

PATENTED or PAT’D

Or later, after the actual patent number was issued, usually on the order of

PAT 1976479

There are some “discrepancies” and “inconsistencies” as to when a particular patent stamp was used, but I think that that comes from the later use of an earlier stamp.

When a new blade width was needed some model and a new stamp needed to be made OR an in-use stamp failed, but an earlier one would fit, the older stamp would be used until the new one came in. Just my guessing here, but it’s the only theory I have that fits the rare inconsistencies.

[zzyzzogeton]

It's late.

I'll just put this here to hold a place for pic #5.

[fireattack18]

It's late.

I'll just put this here to hold a place for pic #5.

What is the bottom knife in pic #5 above?

Here,

[wlf]

It's late.

I'll just put this here to hold a place for pic #5.

What is the bottom knife in pic #5 above?

Here,
Westerns002.jpg

You might not get an answer, that post is over 8 years old. I've done this a couple times myself.

[fireattack18]

You might not get an answer, that post is over 8 years old. I've done this a couple times myself.

Interesting....it is still a photo of a knife, regardless of the age of the topic?

But, you are correct...happens to me more than ya think...

Would it better to start a fresh new topic with the same photo?

[Mumbleypeg]

If anyone knows the answer they'll post it here just as readily as they would if it was a new post. The OP is still active here so perhaps he will see this. Just give it some time. Or send him a PM.

Ken

[zzyzzogeton]

Never realized I hadn't finished up picture 5.

From top to bottom, we have -

a G46-5 from 1941 - the 1936 version had black and gray fiber washers, not the red and black shown here.

a 643 from 1934 to 1935

a 549 or 649 from 1941, depending on if the handle is stag or bone stag. This is an example of where the blade profile changed from the pattern implication. "49" some how got recycled into the pattern number for the W49 Bowie in 1964. W49 was the model, it was just marketed under the "BOWIE" name from 1964 to 1967.

a 643 from 1941

[wlf]

You might not get an answer, that post is over 8 years old. I've done this a couple times myself.

Interesting....it is still a photo of a knife, regardless of the age of the topic?

But, you are correct...happens to me more than ya think...

Would it better to start a fresh new topic with the same photo?

No as Ken said, I just thought you might need made aware.

I'm glad you reopened this thread. I don't know if I still have the pictures of the Western German pocketknife and it is pertinent to another recent thread .

I see it has the typical early indication of German manufacturing ; the small underlined elevated o in Co.

[fireattack18]

Never realized I hadn't finished up picture 5.

From top to bottom, we have -

a G46-5 from 1941 - the 1936 version had black and gray fiber washers, not the red and black shown here.

a 643 from 1934 to 1935

a 549 or 649 from 1941, depending on if the handle is stag or bone stag. This is an example of where the blade profile changed from the pattern implication. "49" some how got recycled into the pattern number for the W49 Bowie in 1964. W49 was the model, it was just marketed under the "BOWIE" name from 1964 to 1967.

a 643 from 1941

THANKS FELLAS!