Is this Celluloid? Display board issues?

[1SamIam]

Below is a knife on a display board from my dad’s collection. Is it a Celuloid?

From display board

Reason for my question is the well being of the rest of the board of knives. I have not removed any of the knives and am pondering what to do with the board.

Back ground, the board was part of my father’s collection. The board appear to be Case XX U.S.A. 10 dot. It had been stored for a while in his attic along with some other knives. I had this board since my brothers and I split up his collection, say 2006. I am not an active collector and not very knowledgeable. I have not removed the other 56 or so knives on the board as I am not sure what I may do with it and the knives. I had considered making a frame and placing this board in it and cover with plexiglass as is. I had also considered other possibilities but the type of scales may impact the direction. Memory is a wonderful but not wonderful when lost. Seems there was another board in his collection we removed the knives and split them up as there were quite a few that had damaged scales. This was particularly the case with the yellow handled knives that look as if they shrank and moved.

Back to my point. If Celluloid do I remove the knife from the board to avoid the Celluloid from damaging the others on the board?

[1967redrider]

Most definitely, keep 'em separated or it will grenade the rest of the display knives.

to AAPK, if I haven't said so already.

[1SamIam]

Most definitely, keep 'em separated or it will grenade the rest of the display knives.

to AAPK, if I haven't said so already.

Thank you for the welcome!

I edited the title since I am expanding beyond the original title.

So another question or 10.

Bottom row of the board contains the trouble maker.

I assume the best approach is to remove the knife that has gone bad from the board. Do you think there would be an issue to replace the knife with a different one if I can find a replacement? Meaning is it’s location ‘tainted’ in a way that may cause the replacement knife to deteriorate, or am I over thinking this? I was thinking the board would look better full if I decide to keep and display.

What type material is used on the yellow handled knife? I want to validate it is not celluloid.

Better picture of the yellow handled knife

Next question
There appears to be an issue with some of the other knife scales. Is this a result of storage issues or off gassing? See pictures below.

This knife is in the row right above the trouble maker.

This knife is in the 3rd row above the offending unit.

There are others units on the board that the handles appear to have a purple hue. I will not post them here, at least not now, unless it would help determine issues. Yet others appear in affected.

I appreciate any in put and assistance.

[1967redrider]

I don't think there's an issue with yellow composition, and the other two are Delrin which is definitely not a problem. If this were my display, I would remove the bad knife and replace it with one of the same pattern number in bone or stag, of the same time period.

[Mumbleypeg]

Case used several different types of yellow synthetic material, at various times. The oldest version was celluloid, which will be found mostly on Tested XX era and Case XX era knives. Those can sometimes be identified by a thin white backing, sometimes (not always) visible between the metal liner (which on a pocket knife is the ”scale”) and the handle cover.

Case replaced that celluloid with a different sort of synthetic handle cover, which does not have a white backing. It wasn’t celluloid but it too turned out to be unstable over time. Some collectors call this “shrinky-dink”. It, like celluloid, is unpredictable. Typically it shrinks away from the bolsters first, then may shrink from the pins, crack, break up, discolor, and eventually more or less disintegrate. I’m guessing that’s the material on your OP knife. In other words it’s not celluloid. I base that on looks and the time period your knife was made.

During the 1970s Case began replacing the shrinky-dink plastic (which was used for white covers also) with a new synthetic from DuPont called Delrin. Delrin replaced most commonly used older plastics almost universally across the American cutlery makers, including Case. I suspect your Birds-eye pattern either just hasn’t started the “shrink” phenomenon, or possibly it’s Delrin.

Which brings us to your jigged brown covers. Those are most likely Delrin, which by 1970 was in use at Case, in lieu of jigged bone on many pocket knife patterns. Delrin, while very stable and unlikely to shrink or decompose, with time may develop a coating of oxidation. Some call that coating “Delrin haze”. You won’t find it on knives that are regularly handled and used, but it will sometimes appear on knives rarely used, or in displays. The good news is it is easily removed with an oily rag. If you’re very careful you may be able to do it without removing the knives from the board. Or you can do as I’ve done with the Delrin covers on a board I have - leave them be.

If your knives were mine I would carefully remove the one with the damaged (shrunken) covers, and replace the covers with a modern-day yellow synthetic. That would keep the integrity of the knife and the display true to its origins. (That knife will have a pattern number starting with “3”, which denotes yellow synthetic covers.). Case Repair might replace them for free (but they no longer pin on shields - they use glue). Any of several knife mechanics here can replace them.

Hope that helps. The changes described above were phased into production over time, so it’s not possible to say definitively when the switch occurred on any given pattern. There are other details hard to tell without having the knife “in-hand”.

Ken

[1SamIam]

1967 Redrider and Mumbleypeg I appreciate the validation on the celluloid knife, I had hoped it was not, but suspected it was. When my brothers band I split up dad’s collection there were many Buck Creek Indian Head knives and they were in terrible shape as well as others around them. Later on I came to learn some about celluloid and recently read a thread here.

One of the Indian Head knives

What a mess

I have maybe a half dozen in this shape, what a shame.

There are 3 other yellow handled knives on the board. One or two seem to show some signs of shrinking.

The one to the left in the picture seems to show shrinking. Color looks different too.

The Birds Eye in earlier post appears to be pretty good, to my untrained eye. I have quite a few yellow handled loose Case knives with shrinking cracking handles, it is sad. I was not sure what to do with them. I may check out what case could/would do with these knives.

Mumbleypeg I appreciate the education on the handle materials. I had heard of Delrin but don’t think I had ever seen any discolor as several have on this board. A comment you made helped me realize I was using the term ‘scales’ incorrectly. I was using it interchangeably with handle, but now realize it is what is under the handle.

I will plan to remove the celluloid knife. I like the idea of replacing it with another similar and may explore the idea of having the handles removed and replaced with yellow. I mentioned I have thought about putting the board in a display frame, well that was my son’s idea. I’ll run this swap approach by him, though I am sure he’d like that.

I may do a new thread requesting some input on other handle materials on these board mounted knives.

Thanks again,
Sam

[Mumbleypeg]

I don’t think any of those knives on your board are celluloid. I took the liberty of copying your most recent picture and assigning a number to each knife so we can discuss them.

IMG_7177.jpeg (87.3 KiB) Viewed 1328 times

The covers on numbers 1 and 5 are what is called “imitation pearl”. Those knives will have a pattern number beginning with 9, which is Case’s handle code for it. It’s a synthetic material but not sure what it is, but probably not celluloid. It does shrink slightly (as evidenced in your picture) but is unlikely in my experience to self destruct or out gas as celluloid will. If you should decide to replace those covers there are modern acrylic materials available today that IMO more closely appear like genuine pearl.

Numbers 2 and 4 are genuine pearl (aka mother of pearl). Those will have pattern numbers beginning with 8.

Numbers 3 and 6 are the previously discussed yellow synthetic. I don’t see evidence of shrinkage in your picture but it’s difficult to say from a picture.

You mentioned previously the board being stored in the attic. One of the best things you can do to stabilize and prevent further deteriorating of the knives (I see what appears to be rust or oxidation spots on some of the blades) will be getting them into a climate controlled area (away from sunlight). There are many posts here about storage and preservation techniques which can be found by searching for those topics.

Ken

[1SamIam]

Mumbleypeg,
Thank you for the information on the six knives.
My last post was confusing, sorry. I don’t suspect additional knives on the board to be celluloid. The first picture was just about some other knives I gained my first experience with celluloid.

The 2nd picture was in reference to the yellow handled knives #3 and #6, possible shrinkies. I was just making note that #3 seemed be showing evidence of shrinkage, but as you say the picture is poor.

The only time my dad’s knives were stored in an attic was before he passed. I was surprised they were in the attic and not sure exactly why. The board I have is in a climate controlled environment. The knives are dirty and do show some signs of oxidation. I’ll look up some info on storage and preservation.

Thanks again,
Sam

[eveled]

Personally I would take them all off the boards and give them some love. They all need some oil and pocket time.

[1SamIam]

Eveled,
I had thought about taking them off the board and cleaning but then replacing on the board to display. I don’t plan to carry these currently as I have others.

Reattaching to the board, I assume, would require a particular wire soft enough to form around the knives and twist to tighten. Also would require a wire that would not rust. One knife appears to have been changed out as the wire is different from the others.

This wire is different color/appearance to the others

Notice about center board the wire attaching the knife is different appearance to the others.

[eveled]

I understand completely. I still would take them off and maintain them. Maybe solder would work? It’s very soft and doesn’t rust.

Or maybe bread ties? Every box of trash bags comes with a sheet of them.

Or small zip ties.

[1SamIam]

Maybe solder would work? It’s very soft and doesn’t rust.
Or maybe bread ties? Every box of trash bags comes with a sheet of them.
Or small zip ties.

These are great ideas! I like the solder idea as it mimics the wire.

[Mumbleypeg]

Most good hardware stores sell a variety of different sizes of wire which would be better than solder. It looks about the same size and color of electric fence wire, which can be purchased at a farm store (like Tractor Supply). If not they sell other wire guages also. You might be able to re-use the existing wire if you remove it carefully.

Ken

[1SamIam]

I have a partial roll of fence wire. Seems I remember it being a bit stiff, however I can check that out.

Why do you think solder is not a good alternative? Just trying to learn.

[Mumbleypeg]

I have a partial roll of fence wire. Seems I remember it being a bit stiff, however I can check that out.

Why do you think solder is not a good alternative? Just trying to learn.

It‘s not very strong for one thing. Not sure how it will respond to twisting it on the backside to hold knives snugly on the board. That wire there now has held up for 40-50 years. Just seems with a little research you should be to find something better than solder at a hardware or a hobby store. For example the local Ace Hardware here sells spools of various kinds and sizes of wire for all types of uses. And unlike the “big box” stores they also have personnel who are pretty good at helping find what you need, if you explain what you’re trying to do.

Ken

[1SamIam]

Ken,

I understand where you are coming from. I will probably be at an Ace today for another item and can do some browsing. As my wife would say ‘An opportunity to go to the man store!’

Thanks,
Sam

[ScoutKnives]

I wouldn’t recommend solder as well , most solder has a flux in it which can be a corrosive, acid core and rosin core . The solid core might be ok but like Ken has stated it’s not very strong .

Mike

[1SamIam]

I wouldn’t recommend solder as well , most solder has a flux in it which can be a corrosive, acid core and rosin core . The solid core might be ok but like Ken has stated it’s not very strong .

Mike

Mike

Thank you for the information and that settles it, solder will not be used. I failed on my Ace trip earlier this week to remember to look at possible wire candidates. Memory is a terrible thing to lose. I do want to find something that will hold the knives securely but not too tight as to mar the handles.

I appreciate the feedback,
Sam

[Lama]

Would a thin insulated electrical wire work, something from an electronics store? The insulation would protect the knife while the wire would hold it securely. I think this is a 22 gauge wire. Here’s a photo for scale.

[1SamIam]

Would a thin insulated electrical wire work, something from an electronics store? The insulation would protect the knife while the wire would hold it securely. I think this is a 22 gauge wire. Here’s a photo for scale.

It would be soft and pliable by I wonder if the insulation would color the handle or the tangs?

[Lama]

Would a thin insulated electrical wire work, something from an electronics store? The insulation would protect the knife while the wire would hold it securely. I think this is a 22 gauge wire. Here’s a photo for scale.

It would be soft and pliable by I wonder if the insulation would color the handle or the tangs?

My uninformed opinion, but I don’t think the insulation would react with the metal. There’s probably more of a chance two different metals would react to each other than insulation in contact with metal. Insulation has to be stable. The electrical wire would short if it deteriorated.

Another idea is to use a thin cord instead of wire, something like the linen twine used for stitching leather. You’d have to be a good at tying knots, but there would be no chance of a reaction between the knife’s handle cover or metal and the twine. A waxed linen twine would work well with a square or reef knot behind the board, it comes in colors.

[1SamIam]

[/quote]

My uninformed opinion, but I don’t think the insulation would react with the metal. There’s probably more of a chance two different metals would react to each other than insulation in contact with metal. Insulation has to be stable. The electrical wire would short if it deteriorated.

Another idea is to use a thin cord instead of wire, something like the linen twine used for stitching leather. You’d have to be a good at tying knots, but there would be no chance of a reaction between the knife’s handle cover or metal and the twine. A waxed linen twine would work well with a square or reef knot behind the board, it comes in colors.
[/quote]


This stands to reason.

I like the idea of the twine or some other cord like material. My wife has used a strong small wire called tiger wire which is coated. When I get around to dealing with the step of reattaching I’ll have plenty of options to choose from! I appreciate the great discussion.

Sam

[1SamIam]

Just an update, I removed the celluloid handled knife from the board.

I was a bit surprised at the appearance of the board area under the knife.

The back looks worse than front.

Used some mineral oil on it as the blades had been in one position for 55 years.

[Mumbleypeg]

Just an update, I removed the celluloid handled knife from the board.
IMG_3447.jpeg
IMG_3449.jpeg

About what I would expect from old Case yellow celluloid. I’ve seen some a lot better, some a lot worse. The greenish colored material around the brass pins is “verdigris”, which is the result of chemical reaction between the acid generated by deteriorating celluloid, and the copper in brass. When celluloid deteriorates it gives off nitrous oxide gas, which combined with water vapor in the air = nitrous acid. Some of the verdigris has deposited on the board where the brass pins were in contact, or close proximity, hence the greenish coloration. I suspect upon removal of the celluloid covers there will also be some degree of verdigris on the brass liners.

Ken

[1SamIam]

Ken,

I appreciate the chemistry lesson, makes sense. Would washing the knife with baking soda then oiling help neutralize the acidic effect? I would guess the process will continue until the handles are removed.

Is the Case badge glued to the handle or somehow attached to the liners? I am thinking removing the handles to stop the deterioration may be the best solution.