When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

The KA-BAR brand originated as a trademark of the Tidioute Cutlery Company. Tidioute was later taken over & renamed the Union Cutlery Company which continued making the brand until Union eventually adopted it as the company name in 1952. Cutco Corporation later acquired the company in 1996.
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lt632ret
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When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

I would guess that most of us are aware of the following information Union Razor Company, Tideoute mark used 1902-1909

Union Cutlery Co. Tideoute marked knives were only made 1898-to approx. 1912.

Union Cutlery Co. with North American outline 1912-1923

Union Cutlery Co. Olean, NY 1912 first used.

OLCUT, and Keenwell also used first in the 20's.

After 1923--KA-BAR on main blade, and Union Cutlery Co. Olean, NY on either the back of the blade if a single blade, or on one of the smaller blades. These will be referred the Union mark. If I state the Union mark it means the blade will be stamped "Union Cutlery Co. Olean, NY"

After 1952 Union Cutlery Co. is no longer marked on the knives. (Equivalent in Case Language: XX and USA)

Kabar, USA was changed to in 1951

In the 70's a pattern number was added between the Kabar and the USA.( Above info curtesy Bruce Voyles)

Now what I am trying to determine is when the first dogs head folding knives were made and under what tang stamp. I believe tidioute made a knife in which the pommel was the now recognizable dogs head however it was not the shield that is so well known ( it was a dogs head pommel ) that would have been prior to 1912. Tidioute used the North American logo ( outline of the north american continent.) However I do not know if they used that mark with the dogs head shield on early knives. This would I believe make it the earliest in this line ( if it exists). After union ( Olean NY) acquired the company they began in 1912 to produce knives with the North American outline and did so until around 1923 . While Unions with the early North American mark are rare even rarer are the folding knives that had both the North american tang and the dogs head shield in the handle. Usually these were large folding hunters with jigged bone. I have over the years found 3 examples of patterns that were made with both the dogs head shield in the handle and the North American tang. (There are many more patterns that have just the North american tang). I feel that these are the earliest versions of dogs head unions( ie KA BAR). I have included a pic of the razor display case used by union tidioute and the book with that logo written by David Anthony . Also the three patterns of knives I have found with both the shield and logo. One has a lockback bar which is tang stamped on the obverse side as Pat Oct 23 1916, The smaller ( no bottom bolster ) folding hunter is marked on the Obverse Union Cut Co Olean NY. The other knife is not marked on the obverse however may have worn off. Again the North American tang by itself is very rare being a hundred years approx old. However it would seem the dog shield patterns were fewer and rarer. My question is does any one have provinance or information on an earlier version of a dogshead shield in handle predating these examples or knowledge of any other patterns that fit this criteria. Personally until I find evidence I believe these to be the earliest versions produced of these knives Any information would be appreciated. Thankyou LT
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by btrwtr »

As far as I know the Union with the North American outline stamps are the earliest Dog's head shield knives. Good information and history of stamps that you provided. Great examples shown. Thanks for sharing.

Here is another version dog's head with the North American outline stamp.

Wayne
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by stockman »

When was that N America stamp used?

Harold
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

Dogone now I have another pattern to find. They all seem to have the same jigging I guess that would seem logical although some others with that tang had variations. . That one is a dandy.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

According to Voyles 1912 until 1923. Although I have heard others say as early as 1909.???????
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by Jacknifeben »

I have this "hobo" knife tang stamped UNION CUT. CO. Olean N.Y. U.S.A on the blade and PAT. NOV. 5th 1907 on the fork. Will this help any?
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by Jacknifeben »

Forgot the dogs head.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

The Hobo does not help, but does the dogs head banana in the pic, have the North american outline union tang stamp? if it does It is another pattern (banana) that i had not seen with this mark . It is possible ( of course the knife is closed so I cannot tell ) however Napanoch was making the banana pattern during the approx era. So tell me what is the tang on it? It really looks in good shape. 1, I am looking for knives carrying the Union North American outline tang with the dogs head shield in the side. To determine what patterns under that marking were made during that period 2, any with the dogshead shield in the handle and a tangstamp earlier than the North american out line. I guess that would have to be some form of Tidioute. ??? That was about all that came before Olean NY
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by Jacknifeben »

All of the pictures are 1 knife.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

I apologize I am probably doing something wrong but all I see is originally the tang pic of the hobo and one pic of a closed banana pattern dogs head. this still is the only pic I see am I doing something wrong or else please just tell me if the tang is the North American outline or something else???? if I am missing some pics or something please let me know. I am not great with computers.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by peanut740 »

There were a couple North American dogs head knives in Voyles auction that ended last week.1 for sure was a folding hunter, I don't remember if the other was a hunter or not.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

Yes there were a couple of north american dogs heads. In fact the small one in my picture was one of them , I believe that there were one or two others but I already had one of that model which was the one in my original pics without the locking bar, so i did not need another of the same pattern. There were more north americans in that auction than i had seen in years. I bought a little pearl and a hawkbill as well. None of the other North american tangs were dogs heads. It is the combination of the tang and shield and being the first dogheads that intrigues me. I mean if you collect dogsheads you want them all and these have to be among the most difficult to find. Especially if they are the first which I believe until shown different they are.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by Jacknifeben »

My dogs head does not have the North American out line, Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by 1967redrider »

I have never seen The Union "North America" tang stamp before and great history lesson, thanks for sharing. I'm interested in learning and an answer to this question but can provide no answers.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by stockman »

stockman wrote:When was that N America stamp used?

Harold
Thanks, lt went back and read your post my answer was in the first few lines. Great info.

Harold
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by upnorth »

I found this knife recently in a huge collection.
Does it have any bearing on the dogshead discussion??
Looks to be an exhibition knife . . . . . .
Very well made, IMO.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

Did this knife come from the Stidham collection? I believe one was being sold by a seller in Florida and I suspect originally it was in the Rhett Stidham collection. This is the version of Tidioute that I mentioned having a dogs head pommel. However while instinctively I feel that this pattern was the beginning of the dogs head logo I do not feel that your knife or the one I saw from the seller in Florida ( which again I believe came from the Stidham collection) are original examples, the condition of the knife which would have to be over 100 years old and the handle materials lead me to believe that these were remakes from an original pattern. I also dimly recall seeing other examples ( a couple over the years ) and they are always bright shiny and that contemporary wood. Now I could be wrong and that is what I am trying to find out. I would welcome any correction information or provanance to validate the knife. I do feel that your knife was patterned after an original Tidioute design. However I cannot substanciate that fact. In either event as I originally stated it is a dogs head pommel not a Shield which is why I still believe that the shield in conjunction with the Union North American union tang was the first to utilize the dogs head shield. I also believe that the Tidioute pommel was was the beginning of the line but I have yet to see what I believe to be an original example of the pommel dogs head. Your picture was indeed helpful because it shows exactly the knife with the pommel that I had referenced and allowed me to explain and seek any information anyone might have regarding my question thankyou. PS I believe I know who came out with the replicas ( remakes) he was known for similar endeavers but I have no proof so like a said I would truly appreciate any info to clarify the question. As far as my original question the dogs head shield and North american tang still seem to be the first for that combination. LT
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by wlf »

That's a good looking blade,I can't tell what the handle material is. I wouldn't think Parker would have used that colored looking "asian" wood???
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by btrwtr »

I know I saw a similar if not identical Tidioute knife float through eBay about a year ago. I thought it to be very interesting but unusual to the point I found it a bit hard to believe. The handles look to be period correct celluloid. Very interesting knife.

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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by upnorth »

The handles are celluloid, the fit and stamp look correct compared to what David Anthony published.
The little details; the way the long pull is cut etc. all shout old knife to me.
This is a fine knife. I have seen my share of crappy repros, but my instinct tells me this is not one of them.
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

I never said it was a crappy repro ( I have seen some well done but you are correct many are not) and I was not insulting the knife I am sure it is a well built fine knife. it is certainly in excellant shape for over 100. I was told the one I was looking at was a wood handle, I did not have it in hand. Again thankyou for showing it and clarifying. The blade and tang do look correct. I believe that if correct it was the first doghead model. and I believe the first shield on the handle was the one with the Union North american outline tang. Unless someone comes up with an earlier shield on handle tang. LT
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by upnorth »

I apologize for getting a little defensive, LT! Some years ago, I believe I saw one of the repros you mentioned. It was certainly not as good as this knife. Next time I am in New York State, I will bring it for you to see!
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by lt632ret »

Looking forward to it. my house is always open, the museum is July4th through labor day this year it is in Napanoch right down the road from the old Schrade plant. Which is being torn down as i write this very Sad. Regards LT
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Re: When were the earliest dogs head foldersmade?

Post by knife7knut »

I realize this is not a folder and perhaps not even made by KA-BAR but I thought I would post it up for your viewing pleasure and speculation. I do not own this knife but borrowed it from a friend of mine many years ago to photograph it.I also did a slight blade re-profile as the tip was broken. We speculated on what it might have been but never concluded what it actually was. I do not think he still owns it as he buys and sells knives quite frequently. I apologize for the lousy pictures.Wish I had taken pics of it next to a ruler or a grid but as I recall the blade was about 9 to 10 inches long and fairly thin like a machete.The only marks were the USA logo inside a horseshoe stamped into the side of the guard.
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