Well, as much as I would like to think I can do anything, when it has come to sharpening, I don't know jack
I have tried on a few occasions and the results were, well, there were none. I may have made it duller.
Anyhow, what I have right now is a Case Moon stone, or man made Novaculite. The clear case that holds it claims its "bite" is more uniform because its man made. Nevertheless, I spent about 15 minutes sharpening, as described, keeping the angle as uniform as possible. Nothing seemed to change.
Any clues to what I'm doing wrong? Any and All advice appreciated. I really want to get decent at this.
NOTE: I am the first to use the stone, new in the box when I got it.
The thing I keep hearing 'round here when it comes to freehand sharpening on stones, "Practice, practice, practice." I don't think 15 minutes is enough practice, but that's me.
I'm lousy at freehand and didn't feel like ruining knives while I practiced. I scratched up my Hen and Rooster pretty good doing that.
I use a Lansky Turnbox 2D2C. Super easy and gets me an edge I'm very pleased with.
Take care and God bless,
Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000
But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
Thanks Steve. I should have made myself more clear, I tried this time here for 15 minutes but I have tried probably a 1/2 dozen different times over the past 2 years since I got the stone but didn't seem to get any kind of result after about 15 minutes or so, so I guess I got a little miffed that I wasn't getting it, and put it away. Should I start with a different system? Or just put in more time and effort? Is the Moonstone good enough by itself to put a nice, keen edge on a good standard pocket knife? The knife I was going to try next is an old Utica 2 blade featherweight Girlscout knife that I want to give to my daughter.
Politicians are the lowest life form on earth; Democrats are the lowest form of politicians - General George Patton
There are numerous threads here with sharpening advice. Here’s just one of them with some good tips. viewtopic.php?f=113&t=19411 Some of the better ones include using a black marker to color the edge, so you can see what is happening - are you removing metal in the right areas. And getting some cheap “junker” carbon steel knives to practice on until you learn the technique. Stainless steel is generally more difficult to sharpen, so it’s also more difficult to learn using it.
Free-hand sharpening is a lot like riding a bicycle. It takes some persistence to learn, but once you do it is easy and you’ll always know how to do it.
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
If the blades are little thick just above the edge and if the sharpening stone is a fairly fine grit, it can take hours of sharpening to get to the edge; i.e. you have to remove the thick 'shoulder' before the edge gets in contact with the stone. Using a black marker on the edge will show you if this is happening.
If the edges were well sharpened to begin with, then a few strokes on a medium or fine stone can bring back the sharp edge.
But if the edge is truly dull, almost blunt, then you need a coarse stone because a lot more steel needs to be removed.
Maybe you need a coarse stone ?
kj
Thanks guys, great stuff. I'm going to use the marker trick on the featherweight. its got some sharpness to it now so I don't think it will need a whole lot of work. I have a few old imperials and hammers that I hear were made with good steel and will take an edge so i will practice on those. And I'm off to get started.
Thanks again guys
Politicians are the lowest life form on earth; Democrats are the lowest form of politicians - General George Patton
I think that KJ is probably on the right tack. I have never tried man made novaculite, but the natural novaculite stone that I own is extremely fine grit. The kind of stone that you would use to put the finishing touches on a blade that is already almost razor sharp. I suggest buying a stone with a bit of a coarse grit such as the combination stones at a hardware or Home Depot store. Try one of those before you give up on sharpening stones. Personally, I use a soft Arkansas for most sharpening, but if a knife has a really dull edge then even the soft Arkansas is too fine for the initial work.
Whether thickskinner54 sticks with flat rectangular stones or switches to a Lansky I'm pretty sure kootenay Joe and dinadan correctly diagnosed his problem. I had forgotten my Case Moon Stone. While I bought it in the 1970s and newer ones might be coarser, its grit is similar to a hard Arkansas stone. Lately I've been bringing lightly used EDC knives back to arm shaving sharp with a hard Arkansas stone.
It sounds like thickskinner54 needs to buy coarser stones that will create an edge that is ready to finish with his Moon Stone. Unfortunately he did not write how large a knife he is sharpening. Most of the blade loss I've seen on medium size pocket knives was from unnecessary use of too coarse stones. Coarseness that is appropriate for a very dull 7" blade military Ka-Bar will damage a small pocket knife. Also, after removing enough metal to turn up a bur sharpening on both sides quit and go to your next next finer grit.
Most pocket knives used to be packaged with leaflets that said that and instructed rub the knife on the stone like you were trying to shave a very thin slice off the top of the stone. Work on a solid bench that you can immobilize the stone on so that you can put some muscle into it without the stone slipping. Framing the stone with strips of wood that can be tacked down under good light helps.
Here is a bit on how to sharpen a knife. Read this over a few times before you actually try to do it, and then be careful to follow instructions in detail. Hopefully this will all help!
When you sharpen, lay the knife on the stone at about a 10 degree angle.
Use a fair amount of pressure as you rub the blade on the stone and try to
maintain that angle as closely as you can. Keep working on that side of the
blade until you raise a burr on the other side of the edge. This burr, or
wire edge, must be evident for the entire length of the edge. Do not turn
the knife over until you have raised this burr. Do not quit too soon. If
you don't get this burr or wire edge, you will have no hope at all of
getting the knife really sharp. Once you have raised the wire edge, then
turn the knife over and do the same on the other side, until again you have
raised the wire edge the other way.
Now turn the knife to the first side again, and with fairly light pressure
give it 5 - 10 strokes, turn it over, give it 5 - 10, and repeat the
procedure until you do not detect wire edge on either side. It is essential
that you maintain the 10 degree angle throughout this entire procedure.
Now you need a strop, which is just any old piece of leather or denim (actually I like the denim better) glued to a flat stick and dressed with a good stropping compound. Again maintaining the 10 degree angle, and with QUITE A BIT OF PRESSURE, pull the blade (that is with the edge trailing) along the strop. Be very careful to maintain the 10
degree angle throughout the entire stroke DO NOT ROLL THE KNIFE UP AT THE
END OF THE STROKE, and do not run off the end of the strop. Do not flip the
knife over at the end of each stroke and come back the other way on the
other side of the knife. If you do, you will be anticipating the flip and
almost certainly roll the knife up and as a result rub your edge off! Just
give it about 50 good strokes on one side and then do 50 on the other side,
and you should be able to shave with the knife, and more importantly, make
good feathers and whittle all kinds of neat stuff. When you lose the edge a
bit through normal whittlin', just give it a few strokes on the strop and
the edge will come right back. I usually strop my knife on about 30 - 50
occasions before going back to the stone. When you find that the edge only
lasts for a few minutes before you need to strop again, then it is time to
freshen up the edge on the stone. Remember to use fairly heavy pressure on
the strop. Don't use red jeweller's rouge. Use white or green,zam or
yellowstone or better yet - time for a commercial - Rick's White Lightnin'. It is not necessary to put the White Lightnin’ or whatever other strop dressing that you are using, on the strop each time you use it. One application is sufficient to do 50 – 100 blades.
Mr. Chips, I’d say that’s pretty good advice - for sharpening a razor. Personally I would not recommend a 10 degree angle for a pocket knife. Somewhere in the range of 15 to 25 degrees is typical for a pocket knife, depending on preference, with about 20 degrees being the nominal. In fact, I have an old Case “counter hone” that has knife sharpening instructions printed on it - it recommends 20 degrees, as does the Queen counter hone.
I respect your right to sharpen yours at 10 degrees - it’s your knife. Probably serves your needs well. I just don’t think it’s sound advice to give a novice trying to learn proper technique for a pocket knife. BTW here’s a link to a recent discussion about sharpening angles viewtopic.php?f=113&t=61579.
Ken
Case counter hone
Queen counter hone
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
Other advice i have seen is to NOT apply excessive pressure as you move the blade edge over the stone. The expression is: "let the stone do the work".
Really there is no one single way to sharpen. Firm pressure or light pressure, both work, but keep in mind you want to remove as little steel as possible that will result in a sharp edge. When using coarse stones it is easy to remove more steel than is necessary.
As Ken has said, 10 degrees per side on a pocket knife blade would take a lot of sharpening to achieve and the resultant edge would be a bit flimsy for cutting sticks, plastic, etc. The edge would likely roll over and then seem dull until you stropped it straight. 20-25 degrees per side has long been considered optimal for pocket knife.
kj
As a wood carver who learned a lot about carving knives. I have never heard of nailing down a wood frame to hold the stone or applying that kind of pressure. I do agree with final or frequent honing of a dedicated carving knife. They do not have bevels like a pocket knife. More a true V. For these type pull the knife towards you and lift with out rolling the edge. Do not leave a wire edge as that dulls the blade right away. Wire edges is what you need for a wood lathe tool. At carving club and shows we use a piece of old men's leather belt either glued or double stick carpet taped to a piece of wood. I used green ZAM. They do sell a special powder for belts but I do not have name.
I definitely would not use 10 degrees, it would require removing a huge amount of metal from the blade and result in a very long fragile edge that would be easily damaged. Here is a diagram that shows the angles for comparison, 20-25 being the most commonly used for most knives. Exacto and razor blades used 17 degrees.
Take a look at the angle on a Mora.
Pretty close to 10 degrees per side.
They cut pretty good.
20 degrees is ok if you are scraping gaskets off of an engine block. Not so great for real whittlin'
By the way, if you look at the older instructions on the bench stones they used to have in hardware stores for the use of customers, They suggested much flatter angles than the later ones.
I say 10 degrees because it works, and there is already an angle ground into the blade, so the actual angle is steeper than that.
Anyway, I have been whittlin' for 65 years now and have sold a lot of my work. I want a knife to CUT not to look at.
I use the same angle on hunting knives too, and have disassembled quite a few deer, moose, and bears. I can usually get a moose gutted and skinned and still shave hair with my Camillus folding knife.
I wonder how things were back in the mid eighteen hundreds and far earlier when sharp knives were so important.
Just as they are today, as a matter of fact. I wonder how men an women in rural areas sharpened their knives. They must have rubbed knives on found smooth stones as they could. They must have had favorite river stones. If they lived near Novaculite stone and were aware of it's sharpening attributes, which they almost certainly were, they must have counted themselves lucky. They must have cherished their stones. To have a sharp knife was hugely important and I can't believe they had sharp knives continuously.
I wonder what it was like for very rural folks to learn that there was available, for money or barter, smooth even sided sharpening stones, that for much less work, would put a very even edge on your knife. It really makes me wonder because there was a real transition there and it was very important. In my ignorance, I have this scenario quite simple but I know very little about this kind of history and I think it's very interesting.
I feel confident in thinking they probably laid that blade right over on that stone. These were mostly intelligent people who knew what they needed.
Interesting discussion. The only thing to be concluded is there is no single”right way”. We all sharpen to personal preference and experience, and the job at hand. I defer to the title of this thread and the OP regarding appropriate recommendations for “novice guidance”. In typical AAPK fashion we now have covered normal everyday knife use and “real whittlin”.
For those who subscribe to Knife Magazine there is an excellent article on sharpening, by knifemaker Abe Elias, in the May 2019 issue. Although most of the article talks about power sharpening using belts, there is some good commentary about sharpening in general and "sharpening myths", including the desirability and usefulness of a razor sharp edge.
Sharpen to your personal preference - whatever works for you.
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
Mr. Chips, how do you know that the sharpening angle that works so well for you is actually 10 degrees per side ? Do you have a way to measure the angle ?
kj
kootenay joe wrote:Mr. Chips, how do you know that the sharpening angle that works so well for you is actually 10 degrees per side ? Do you have a way to measure the angle ?
kj
I do measure the angle using little wedges that I cut to 10 degrees using my bandsaw and a jig I made. My students put the wedge at the end of the stone and lay the blade on it with the edge on the stone. It helps the learners have a reference as to what the 10 degree angle is when learning freehand sharpening.
If the angle they actually sharpen at is a bit steeper, say 15 degrees, it is no big deal. It will still work.
It occurs to me that since almost all blades have an angle round in already, and since my procedure is to lie the flat side of the knife on the wedge, the total angle on that side of the knife is likely closer to 15 degrees.
I do not measure the angle from the center of the blade.
I do know that I make my edges a lot thinner than most people do though, and they work well for what I do.
Wedge = neat ! Do the learners move the wedge and knife over the stone ? i.e. by keeping blade flat on the 10 degree wedge then the 10 degree angle is maintained. Then after some practice the wedge is no longer needed ?
Have you bought any new traditional style knives lately ? If so, some of them can be 40 degrees per side (e.g. Queen). It must take a very long time to free hand sharpen these blades to 10 degrees per side ?
kj
kootenay joe wrote:Wedge = neat ! Do the learners move the wedge and knife over the stone ? i.e. by keeping blade flat on the 10 degree wedge then the 10 degree angle is maintained. Then after some practice the wedge is no longer needed ?
Have you bought any new traditional style knives lately ? If so, some of them can be 40 degrees per side (e.g. Queen). It must take a very long time to free hand sharpen these blades to 10 degrees per side ?
kj
The wedge is for reference. At first a beginner checks the angle every few strokes on the wedge. Later the wedge isn't needed.
Yes, some new knives have absurd edge angles. It can take a while to get the right bevel on a blade. A Norton India stone cuts pretty fast though. Diamond in a medium grit is even faster.
thickskinner54 wrote:I'm going to go check eBay for one of those Lansky turnbox 2D2C's Steve. Thanks for the tip. I do want to learn freehand though.
Hi, if you are still looking at the Lansky Turnbox, have a look at Idahone website. They have a V angle sharpener, which i think is just as good as the Lansky, better if you have larger knives. Check out the learning center on their website, it is really helpfull.
Probably serves your needs well. I just don’t think it’s sound advice to give a novice trying to learn proper technique for a pocket knife. BTW here’s a link to a recent discussion about sharpening angles 
