Japaneese Water Stone

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Art In Colorado
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Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Art In Colorado »

What is best grit to buy? Have several oil stones but would like to try one of these.
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Sharpnshinyknives
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

[quote="Art In Colorado"]What is best grit to buy? Have several oil stones but would like to try one of these.[/quote


I can’t speak for everyone, but my 600 grit on one side and 1000 grit on the other is my favorite Japanese stone. It wasn’t cheap but it put’s really fine edge on my Japanese chef knives. I have found other uses for the 1000 grit as well, it works for polishing metal too.
SSk

Actually my Japanese stones are 6000 and 10,000 grit. Didn’t think that was correct when I posted it and checked and sure enough it’s got an extra 0 behind each one of them. The 10,000 grit is so fine that I actually used it to take the green corrosion off of bolster on a Case Sidewinder that had turned green from being left in the sheath for decades. It looked as good as new when done. You will get a lot of use out these stones, they can’t be beat.
SSk
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FRJ
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

Art, what kind of blades are you planning to sharpen? What is their length?
What will you use them for?
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Art In Colorado
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Art In Colorado »

I have two knives made of S30V, two Tops made of 1095 carbon and a Benchmade made of M390. Also, two Schrade pocket knives made in New York.
I have no problem keeping them sharp but am always looking for something new.
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FRJ
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

Art, if you are new to water stones and have used stones before you are in for a nice surprise.
They work very efficiently and very quickly. Especially the low grit stones. They are soft.
If you are not careful you can actually cut into them, slightly, when your edge gets sharp. I have little scares on mine.
The lower grits, as you know, are great for creating an edge quickly and the higher grits keep the edge refined.
Same as other stones but they do it faster. If you try one you will get a feel for it.
I have a 300 grit that I haven't used very much. Don't need it much. Not sure how much I like it.
I have a 800 grit that is the cats pajamas. My using knives, Pocket/kitchen, are usually in pretty good shape and this stone
brings them back to life quite nicely.
I have a 1200 stone that I like as much as the 800. Basically for the same reasons.
I have a 8000 grit stone that I bought for sharpening my wood working chisels initially. I polish an edge with it when I feel the need.
I have a combination stone with a soft/hard grit. I don't remember what they are nor do I care. I just like the grits and use it as well.
The thing is, combination stones leave a lot to be desired in terms of usefulness. You can use only one side and you can't use the edges. They cost less up front but you loose a lot. The edges are great for small folding blades.
My stones are 8" x 2 1/2" x 1 or 1 5/16". I always recommend buying the largest stone you can buy. You won't regret it.
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Art In Colorado
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Art In Colorado »

Thank you. Some good advice right there. :D
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Art In Colorado »

Need some more advice. I presently have a Smith's medium oil stone 20 years old. A India combination stone about 15 years old. Both 8 inches long. I also have if I remember right a Case Moon Stone I purchased right after I got married in 1968. It is very hard and just 4 inches long and mounted on a wood base with the the same wood cover. So I found on the Knife Center a 8 inch Japaneese water stone 1000 grit and a 8 inch 800 grit water stone both for about $30.00.

Since I get along quite well with what I have and would just like to try something else, would either of these make sense or should I be looking at a higher price stone.

Thank you. You have been a great help and I value your experience.
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FRJ
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

Art, the water stones are interesting, especially if they're flat.
I have this 800 stone that is dished because I didn't keep up with rubbing it flat which is easy to do if you have some rather thick glass and abrasive paper, which I do. Or you can rub the stones together to keep them flat. I haven't done that but I see where it can be done. The rubbing together must be done probably after each use with another similar stone.
Anyway ...... I gladly use that dished stone and if the stones you mentioned are anywhere near decent it might be a pretty good deal.
Using water stones is a great way to sharpen. I have many other kinds of stones and I like using them too but I keep the water stones
quite handy.
Your Smith (novaculite?) and India combo sound like great stones. Especially at 8". I can see how they would serve you well.
I probably have stones quite like them. I use water on all my stones.
Honestly, if a guy had just a 8 inch Carborundum stone, coarse/fine grit he could get by just fine. ..... but what fun is that?
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Sharpnshinyknives
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

Art In Colorado wrote:Need some more advice. I presently have a Smith's medium oil stone 20 years old. A India combination stone about 15 years old. Both 8 inches long. I also have if I remember right a Case Moon Stone I purchased right after I got married in 1968. It is very hard and just 4 inches long and mounted on a wood base with the the same wood cover. So I found on the Knife Center a 8 inch Japaneese water stone 1000 grit and a 8 inch 800 grit water stone both for about $30.00.

Since I get along quite well with what I have and would just like to try something else, would either of these make sense or should I be looking at a higher price stone.

Thank you. You have been a great help and I value your experience.

I think the 8 inch stone is adequate for most knives. You need it to be at least 8 for kitchen knives. Your 800 and 1000 would work great on most knives. The next step is to get stones that are much finer. I updated my first post , my stone is 6000 and 10,000 grit. I love the higher grits for putting a super fine edge on my Japanese chef knives. The edge is very thin on these and that’s the only thing that will make them razor sharp and super smooth cutting again. If you are really into sharpening and want to move into these, you might buy at least 1 stone with 6,7,8,9, or 10 thousand grit for finishing with.
SSk
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OSCAR
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by OSCAR »

I’ve used water stones before and they can in fact create a fantastic edge. My problem though, being sharpening challenged, is maintaining perfect angles. It would be terrific if someone made an angle guide to use with them. As for them being soft, yes you can scar them with a sharp knife. They have a smaller stone whose purpose is to flatten and smooth the stones surface. I believe it’s called nagura.
Excellent for sharpening, but there are easier methods. And a good Japanese waterstone is pricey. Cheaper ones don’t hold up as well and don’t do as fine a job. I’ve gone to other methods. Not because the water stones aren’t good but because there are easier ways. I’ve never been able to maintain consistent angles so I prefer guides.
"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

OSCAR wrote:I’ve used water stones before and they can in fact create a fantastic edge. My problem though, being sharpening challenged, is maintaining perfect angles. It would be terrific if someone made an angle guide to use with them. As for them being soft, yes you can scar them with a sharp knife. They have a smaller stone whose purpose is to flatten and smooth the stones surface. I believe it’s called nagura.
Excellent for sharpening, but there are easier methods. And a good Japanese waterstone is pricey. Cheaper ones don’t hold up as well and don’t do as fine a job. I’ve gone to other methods. Not because the water stones aren’t good but because there are easier ways. I’ve never been able to maintain consistent angles so I prefer guides.
Oscar,

I found these angle guides on Amazon. They fasten to the stone with a heavy-duty rubber band. I'm still working at perfecting my technique with these, but I've found that with some practice I've been able to hold the angle over an entire stroke. Actually, I ordered a second set of the same guides, and I fasten one at each end of the stone so that I can alternate strokes without having to turn the stone or switch hands. That seems to be working out pretty well. One thing I should caution about, though: the description says angles "from 10 to 39 degrees." That's not true. In reality, it's 10 to 20 degrees, which generally covers the range I use most.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01 ... UTF8&psc=1

Like you, I am sharpening challenged and have found other methods (mainly angled rods and the GATCO and Lansky clamp systems) to be better for my needs. I still want very much to be able to sharpen on stones, so I keep trying, but it's hard for me for some reason.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

Daryl, preach it brother. I have the same problem.
Here is a link to the japanesechefkifedirect website and their instructional videos and guides on sharpening. https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/how-to-sharpen
I have found this very helpful especially when using Japanese whetstones.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

Sharpnshinyknives wrote:Daryl, preach it brother. I have the same problem.
Here is a link to the japanesechefkifedirect website and their instructional videos and guides on sharpening. https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/how-to-sharpen
I have found this very helpful especially when using Japanese whetstones.

Thank you!! I'll definitely check this out. I need all the help I can get.
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FRJ
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

This is one of the better videos on sharpening I have seen. Why? The guy has determined an angle and is moving the blade edge
on the stone to remove metal from the edge.This is a very important technique in sharpening. :mrgreen:
Removing metal and looking at the edge with lots of light and doing it rapidly. If you want to get the job done today.
The better your edges are the quicker the sharpening. Creating a new edge? Use a coarse stone.
It takes some experience, so try doing it as often as you can.
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OSCAR
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by OSCAR »

Daryl: Thanks for the link to those angle guides. They look like they will do a good job. I will order some so I can use my waterstones again. I only sharpen knives I use as working tools. Collector knives I leave alone. I do think most people are challenged when it comes to freehand sharpening on a stone. I’d rather use a guide like these or Lansky stones with guide rods.
I’d love to have the skill for freehand, but I hate to mess up a good tool so whatever method I use, I need guides. I also agree that angle is important. I like 15 degrees off on each side. More acute will create a sharper edge, but it will dull way faster, or curl or chip. Working knives should NOT be shaving sharp. Oscar
"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

OSCAR wrote:Daryl: Thanks for the link to those angle guides. They look like they will do a good job. I will order some so I can use my waterstones again. I only sharpen knives I use as working tools. Collector knives I leave alone. I do think most people are challenged when it comes to freehand sharpening on a stone. I’d rather use a guide like these or Lansky stones with guide rods.
I’d love to have the skill for freehand, but I hate to mess up a good tool so whatever method I use, I need guides. I also agree that angle is important. I like 15 degrees off on each side. More acute will create a sharper edge, but it will dull way faster, or curl or chip. Working knives should NOT be shaving sharp. Oscar
Oscar: I'm 99.9% in agreement with everything you've said. (Only difference is that I do like my working knives to be razor sharp if possible, but then, I don't do a whole lot of seriously heavy cutting with mine.) Like you, I leave my collector knives alone.

So, the real reason I'm writing this is that I just spent nearly two full hours working on my favorite paring knife with a set of water stones. I used my usual approach of getting a 15 degree/side back-bevel, and then doing the final sharpening at 20 degrees/side. As far as I can tell, I was doing everything just the way they showed in that good Japanese sharpening video shared earlier in this thread, which is pretty much the same way I do things with the angled rods and the GATCO and Lansky clamp/rod systems.

After a lonnnng effort with the 400 grit stone, I finally got a burr on one side. I flipped the knife over and eventually got a burr on the other side. I began alternating sides to remove the burr and keep things even. When the burr was gone, I switched to the 20 degree guides and started again.

For a while, it looked like I was succeeding. The knife was starting to pass my paper towel test, cleanly cutting a hanging, gently pulled Brawny paper towel, but it was still not shaving sharp. I switched to finer and finer grits, and feeling like I'd finally gotten it. I could FEEL the way the knife engaged the stone, and everything seemed great! But, sadly, no. Suddenly, the knife was duller than it had been when I began. It wouldn't even begin to cut the paper towel.

Finally, I gave up. I got out my Lansky angled rod sharpener and set the coarse rods at 20 degrees. During the first few strokes, the knife shed some flakes of some sort, maybe a burr I didn't know was there? After 30 strokes, it cut the paper towel easily. After 30 more strokes on the fine rods, I could shave arm hairs with no trouble.

What I don't get is that, as far as I can tell, I did the same thing with the stones as I do on the angled rods. And yet, the rods worked for me and the stones didn't. It's frustrating. I want so much to be able to do this! (Sigh)
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OSCAR
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by OSCAR »

Hey Daryl,
Have you tried using ceramic rods to finish the edge? They don’t really sharpen, they remove any burrs and straighten the edge. I use Lansky crock sticks as final finish. The angle is set, so you just run edge vertical to the rods a few times. Also, I use them often to touch up a good edge.
From what you describe, sounds like you are doing things correct. The 20 degree secondary bevel is a good idea also. The edge is really dependent on what the tool is used for. A razor edge on a working knife is good, but it is too fine to hold for long. I shave with Dovo straight razors. Not sure what their angle is, but I am sure they are way less than 15 degrees. The strop is to straighten the edge and remove burrs. It doesn’t sharpen. I send them to a pro every 2 years or so. At about 300 bucks each, I don’t want to mess them up.
Other possible factors can be the type of steel that you’re sharpening. Some can be VERY difficult. Harder steel holds a better edge but is harder to resharpen. I have some VG 10 and some D2 that is way harder to sharpen.
Also, the stones. Cheaper ones aren’t great and great ones aren’t cheap. Good Japanese stones are expensive. They wear down pretty fast. They have a smaller one I think is called nagura. It’s sole purpose is to flatten the sharpening stones when they have developed a dip in them. After many tries, and removal of too much material, I gave up.
Guided Lansky works great. And I sometimes use my Worksharp. I know many here don’t like Worksharp but it has worked great for me. Just a few light passes on it though as I don’t want to remove much metal. Once I get a good edge I follow up with the ceramic sticks. Works great for me. Hope you succeed. Best advice I can think to give you is to practice on cheap knives. You don’t want to make a stiletto out of a Bowie.
"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by cudgee »

Daryl wrote:
OSCAR wrote:Daryl: Thanks for the link to those angle guides. They look like they will do a good job. I will order some so I can use my waterstones again. I only sharpen knives I use as working tools. Collector knives I leave alone. I do think most people are challenged when it comes to freehand sharpening on a stone. I’d rather use a guide like these or Lansky stones with guide rods.
I’d love to have the skill for freehand, but I hate to mess up a good tool so whatever method I use, I need guides. I also agree that angle is important. I like 15 degrees off on each side. More acute will create a sharper edge, but it will dull way faster, or curl or chip. Working knives should NOT be shaving sharp. Oscar
Oscar: I'm 99.9% in agreement with everything you've said. (Only difference is that I do like my working knives to be razor sharp if possible, but then, I don't do a whole lot of seriously heavy cutting with mine.) Like you, I leave my collector knives alone.

So, the real reason I'm writing this is that I just spent nearly two full hours working on my favorite paring knife with a set of water stones. I used my usual approach of getting a 15 degree/side back-bevel, and then doing the final sharpening at 20 degrees/side. As far as I can tell, I was doing everything just the way they showed in that good Japanese sharpening video shared earlier in this thread, which is pretty much the same way I do things with the angled rods and the GATCO and Lansky clamp/rod systems.

After a lonnnng effort with the 400 grit stone, I finally got a burr on one side. I flipped the knife over and eventually got a burr on the other side. I began alternating sides to remove the burr and keep things even. When the burr was gone, I switched to the 20 degree guides and started again.

For a while, it looked like I was succeeding. The knife was starting to pass my paper towel test, cleanly cutting a hanging, gently pulled Brawny paper towel, but it was still not shaving sharp. I switched to finer and finer grits, and feeling like I'd finally gotten it. I could FEEL the way the knife engaged the stone, and everything seemed great! But, sadly, no. Suddenly, the knife was duller than it had been when I began. It wouldn't even begin to cut the paper towel.

Finally, I gave up. I got out my Lansky angled rod sharpener and set the coarse rods at 20 degrees. During the first few strokes, the knife shed some flakes of some sort, maybe a burr I didn't know was there? After 30 strokes, it cut the paper towel easily. After 30 more strokes on the fine rods, I could shave arm hairs with no trouble.

What I don't get is that, as far as I can tell, I did the same thing with the stones as I do on the angled rods. And yet, the rods worked for me and the stones didn't. It's frustrating. I want so much to be able to do this! (Sigh)
Daryl, i really do not know your sharpening needs, blade length, type of blade etc., but you may want to look at the Idahone website, they also have angle system ceramic rods. But you sound pretty competent and i'm sure you will work out what is best for you.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

OSCAR wrote:Hey Daryl,
Have you tried using ceramic rods to finish the edge? They don’t really sharpen, they remove any burrs and straighten the edge. I use Lansky crock sticks as final finish. The angle is set, so you just run edge vertical to the rods a few times. Also, I use them often to touch up a good edge.
From what you describe, sounds like you are doing things correct. The 20 degree secondary bevel is a good idea also. The edge is really dependent on what the tool is used for. A razor edge on a working knife is good, but it is too fine to hold for long. I shave with Dovo straight razors. Not sure what their angle is, but I am sure they are way less than 15 degrees. The strop is to straighten the edge and remove burrs. It doesn’t sharpen. I send them to a pro every 2 years or so. At about 300 bucks each, I don’t want to mess them up.
Other possible factors can be the type of steel that you’re sharpening. Some can be VERY difficult. Harder steel holds a better edge but is harder to resharpen. I have some VG 10 and some D2 that is way harder to sharpen.
Also, the stones. Cheaper ones aren’t great and great ones aren’t cheap. Good Japanese stones are expensive. They wear down pretty fast. They have a smaller one I think is called nagura. It’s sole purpose is to flatten the sharpening stones when they have developed a dip in them. After many tries, and removal of too much material, I gave up.
Guided Lansky works great. And I sometimes use my Worksharp. I know many here don’t like Worksharp but it has worked great for me. Just a few light passes on it though as I don’t want to remove much metal. Once I get a good edge I follow up with the ceramic sticks. Works great for me. Hope you succeed. Best advice I can think to give you is to practice on cheap knives. You don’t want to make a stiletto out of a Bowie.

Hi Oscar,

After reading your message and pondering some more, I think the stones themselves might be the biggest part of the problem. I did go with the less expensive ones (about $60 for two double-sided stones and a flattener/nagura), and it felt like even the #300 wasn't removing much metal. It shouldn't take that much work to make so little progress, especially on this particular knife, which I consider fairly easy to sharpen - not at all like some D2 steel knives I have!

I have been careful about re-flattening the stones after each use.

I guess I need to think about whether or not it's worth springing for a set of better stones and trying again.

Thanks for all the time and great advice!
Daryl
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

cudgee: Thank you for pointing me to the Idahone site. I like what I see there.

I mostly sharpen pocket knives and kitchen knives. I use a GATCO or Lansky clamp/rod sharpener for the really tough cases (if the blades are big enough), and angled ceramic rods for easier knives and for general maintenance sharpening. This setup has worked very well for me over the years, and I can get scary-sharp edges this way, but there's just some crazy thing inside me that wants to be able to do just as well freehand on a stone.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by OSCAR »

Daryl. You’re very welcome. I believe I’d call it quits and use whatever method works for you. The money you save not buying more stones can be spent on knives.
"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

OSCAR wrote: I believe I’d call it quits and use whatever method works for you. The money you save not buying more stones can be spent on knives.
A good point. I just tuned up four of my knives in 15 minutes with my usual method, and that included cleaning the ceramic rods.

Maybe if I get a ton of Amazon rewards points in the future, I'll try some better stones. We'll see.
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

Daryl wrote: I used my usual approach of getting a 15 degree/side back-bevel, and then doing the final sharpening at 20 degrees/side.
Daryl, may I ask what is the advantage of changing to 20 degrees for final sharpening.

I have been sharpening knives freehand for years and although I don't know what angle I'm sharpening at I do know that
my angle is not consistent. It can't be, it's freehand, but it's almost consistent and my knives get very sharp.
I wonder if adhering to these certain angles is causing you problems that are unnecessary.
Using a guide is fine but as soon as you move the blade from the guide you are now freehanding anyway.
The man in the video probably isn't sharpening at a true angle all along his blade edge. I'll bet his knives are quite sharp.
It does take practice and you have to know when to quit and pick it up again. Each time you do you are gaining on it.
I hope you keep trying.
If you think your waterstones are causing you problems try using a large inexpensive Carborundum stone for a while. They are great to learn on and give quick feedback. You can always go to better stones. ::nod::
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by Daryl »

FRJ wrote:
Daryl wrote: I used my usual approach of getting a 15 degree/side back-bevel, and then doing the final sharpening at 20 degrees/side.
Daryl, may I ask what is the advantage of changing to 20 degrees for final sharpening.
That's a good question, and I'm sure this will be more than a little controversial. Maybe it's a subject for a whole new thread?

I started doing this many years ago after reading "The Razor's Edge" by John Juranich. He promotes back-beveling as a way to get rid of excess blade material and make it easier to achieve your final objective angle. Personally, I usually like a 20 degree/side final angle, so that's my final goal on most of my knives.

The approach seemed to work, so I've stuck with it. Is it necessarily right, or more right than just sharpening to 20 degrees (or whatever you like) instead? I don't know. I haven't tried to put that to the test for a long time.

You've now got me wondering if anyone else even uses this method, and how many might have tried it and said "no, thanks"!
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Re: Japaneese Water Stone

Post by FRJ »

I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily. It can strengthen the edge I suppose but I was just thinking the complexity of the
thing might be getting in the way while you are learning. Just developing a decent cutting edge can be daunting enough
without the extra angle.
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