Schrade Uncle Henry LB7

[blade_1971]

Hi,

I am new to the forum. I have been researching my late fathers knife collection, and I ran across something that may prove helpful concerning the dating of LB7's. Through many hours of searching through catalogs I have found the following: The first instance of a 3 pin LB7 is found in 1985 and the first instance of the "Uncle Henry" script added was 1988. I ascertained this information by going through each page and zooming in on the pictures. Although you must take care when doing this because only the individual knife pictures can truly reveal this info because some of the display knife pictures can not be updated to the new year because the knives are still in the same place on the display. The pictures are clear. The first 3 pin LB7 shows up in the 1986 catalog, and again in the 1987 catalog. Then, on the cover of the 1988 catalog is a picture of the LB7 with the new U.H. script. With my background in retail and my wife's background in graphic design what we can tell is that when something of that nature changes the tendency is to feature that change somehow.Especially, if this is a mainstay product, and this was one of the knives that put them on the map. This is how I am certain that even though there is not a clear picture of the blade in the '85 '86,'87 catalogs, with the "88 catalog featuring the LB7 on it's cover; It's a pretty clear indication that this was the year this change occurred.

Best Regards,
Rusty

[orvet]

First of all, welcome to AAPK!

I appreciate your arduous research Rusty, I know what you have gone through. I congratulate you for having put in the hard work! I went through all of the Schrade catalogs on the Collectors of Schrade website. Some of the copies Larry has listed there are copies of my catalogs. It was a joint effort with a number of collectors pooling resources to make that site so complete. I went through the catalogs and made a spreadsheet of the models and the years that they appeared in the catalogs. It was about a five-year project including the time to collect the catalogs. It needs to be redone as there is much more to add but the original spreadsheet is posted in the research section here on AAPK.

One thing I discovered about Schrade catalogs when doing that research, Schrade was in the business of making knives, not in the business of making catalogs! Fortunately for those of us who collect the knives they were much better at making knives and they were at making catalogs! There are a large number of inaccuracies in those catalogs, everything from wrong pictures to wrong dimensions on knives.
I'm not saying that you're hunch is incorrect, just cautioning you not to assume that what the catalog says and shows is correct. Frequently it is not correct, which made my initial project much more difficult.

I have noticed several instances when an old picture is used after a change has been introduced.

By the way, this is not unique to Schrade you can also find these discrepancies in the catalogs in Camillus as well. I assume that's probably true with most companies especially going back 30 or more.

Great effort and great intuition on your part! I think the way to prove when the changes were introduced is to find collectors who have examples in their collection with a known purchase or production date. Preferably a collector who purchased a knife when it was first issued. That would give you a little better idea as to the accuracy of the catalog. I have no doubt there will be a number of collectors who come along on this topic and have input that may confirm or dismiss your original hypothesis.

Stick around, I think you started a great discussion that may be going for some time.

[blade_1971]

Thank You for taking the time to respond. I hope to eventually open a sellers page on here soon when I am through researching and cataloging the collection. I have spent some time researching folding knife forums and believe by far this is the place to be.

[bladecollectorr]

Welcome to AAPK and Schrade-life, reading catalogs and decrypting the stuff that isn't always obvious. On this one I think the pics in the catalog are flat out wrong. They simply didn't update the pic used in the catalog for many years after the change from 4 to 3-pin Bear Paw lockbacks.


Now I might be wrong, but here goes.

I'm going with 1981 being the year of the change. Why? Scrimshaw! Scrimshaw paints the picture literally and figuratively. The very first "Schrade Scrimshaw Of The Great Outdoors" series that included a 5" 507SC Bear Paw lockback was in 1981. (link below)

http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYE ... C81-11.htm

You will note that the knife in the flyer is a 4-pin example and is stamped "LB7" not "SC507". These knives are rare as hens-teeth. In over ten years of watching ebay auctions I have seen only two, that I remember, coming up for auction. One was supposedly from "The Trachtenburg Collection". He was the Schrade exec that spear-headed the Scrimshaw line development and probably had one of the first couple made. The other one I snagged for myself a couple years back.

Point being: There are large numbers (hundreds?) of the 1981 507SC that come up for auction and they are all 3-pin. So my theory is this knife was developed and its marketing materials were made during the 4-pin era but by the time they went to mass produce them it had changed to 3-pin for that pattern regardless of handle material.

All the later 507SC knives from 1982 through 1995 were also 3-pin knives to further back this 1981 date up. In 1996 a slightly modified 4-pin design was re-introduced on all delrin-handled Bear Paws. They had larger handle pins and the pivot pin was also moved to a more central location regardless of handle material.

http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/scri ... charts.htm

The next rabbit-hole is exactly when, serial-number-wise, did the 4-pin to 3-pin change happen in LB7s? Here's a long thread exploring that:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/lb7 ... ey.457058/

From that thread, another link to a post where original purchaser remembers getting 3-pin LB7 in "80-'81".

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/lb7 ... st-8345069

I think the 4 to 3-pin change happened during the "N" serials sometime during 1981. "So far: N21301 has 4-pins N37957 has 3-pins"

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/lb7 ... st-8771178

[blade_1971]

Good Point... But, I still only can find the "Uncle Henry" script added on the LB7's at the 1988 point. By the way, I have the aforementioned Scrimshaw knife from 1985 in a display case with 7 others Scrimshaws that was a display case top add on called OC16/EX16. Mine has 2 bears, and its a 3 pin.

[bladecollectorr]

I didn't touch the subject of when the "Uncle Henry" stamp was added because I have no recollection about that at all.

Here's link to the flyer for your 1985 display http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYE ... 5-34-1.htm

Nice set!

[kootenay joe]

bladecollectorr, I don't fully understand: are you saying that the scrimshaw LB7 with the bear with a fish is rare with the "LB-7" marking ? or rare with LB-7 or 507SC markings ?
thanks, kj

[bladecollectorr]

bladecollectorr, I don't fully understand: are you saying that the scrimshaw LB7 with the bear with a fish is rare with the "LB-7" marking ? or rare with LB-7 or 507SC markings ?
thanks, kj

To be clear, none that I have seen with this scrim have been stamped 507SC. The first time this scrim was used was on the 1981 Scrimshaw Bear Paw. Schrade used both SC507 and 507SC when referring to these type knives in literature so its a bit confusing but both are right.

The very 1st (rare) ones were like mine pictured above. 4-pin style, stamped "SCHRADE+" over "USA LB7". This exactly matches the knife pictured in the flyer. In the flyer the knife is twice labelled/referred to as "507SC" but the example pictured is not stamped that way. It's got an LB7 blade with a bonus etch.

Below are some pics of what was sold by the thousands in 1981. I just stole these off ebay. Fair use! They are always available and this one shows nice and complete.

Note that it is a 3-pin knife stamped "Schrade+" over "USA SC507". This is what hit the shelves in 1981:

[kootenay joe]

Thank you but i still am a bit confused. You say: "To be clear, none that I have seen with this scrim have been stamped 507SC".
But your picture from ebay has the same scrimshaw and is marked 507SC.
Do you mean that none of the 4 pin with this scrimshaw had "507SC' ?
I do appreciate your help. Thank you.
kj

[bladecollectorr]

There are also a third and forth variation of this knife. This particular bear and fish scrim is on a whole big bunch of knives but I have only seen two maybe three with the 4-pin and LB7 blade.

In 1983 K-Mart liked the 1981 bear and fish scrim enough to have it reissued for them. Their (3-pin) versions were stamped "Schrade+" over "USA SC705". I have seen them both in brass and nickel-silver. I'm not 100% sure which K-Mart got first. They may have got both at the same time. I can only recall seeing K-Mart version packaging with '83 on it as shown below.

01 SC705.jpg (26.2 KiB) Viewed 4681 times

04 SC705.jpg (20.23 KiB) Viewed 4675 times

[bladecollectorr]

Thank you but i still am a bit confused. You say: "To be clear, none that I have seen with this scrim have been stamped 507SC".
But your picture from ebay has the same scrimshaw and is marked 507SC.
Do you mean that none of the 4 pin with this scrimshaw had "507SC' ?
I do appreciate your help. Thank you.
kj

Sorry friend. Look again. The ebay example is stamped "SC507" NOT "507SC". I have never seen a knife actually stamped 507SC. They are only referred to that way in the literature. Clear as mud?

[orvet]

Sorry friend. Look again. The ebay example is stamped "SC507" NOT "507SC". I have never seen a knife actually stamped 507SC. They are only referred to that way in the literature. Clear as mud?

Even though I went through the catalogs and listed most of the catalog models from 1947 to 2004, I did not list the Ducks Unlimited, the Scrimshaw Series or most of the other special edition knives that appeared in Schrade catalogs. Just listing the Old Timer, Uncle Henry and Open Stock knives took me five years between gathering the catalogs, researching them repeatedly, (because they are quite inaccurate), and actually getting the spreadsheet format was very time-consuming. From a collectors perspective I had little or no interest in the special edition knives, and for the most part that is true today. I never cared for the Scrimshaw Series nor for that matter yellow handled knives because they get very dirty with use and in general are difficult to clean.

As a result I never listed of the Scrimshaw Series and by the time I got to them I had already discovered Robert Clemente's book on Old Timers and he covers the Scrimshaw Series quite thoroughly. If I had discovered Robert Clemente's book before I had done my own listing of Old Timers, Uncle Henry in the Open Stock knives, I would probably never have gone to all the trouble of listing them my self. By the time I discovered his book I already had those three groups done and had yet to do the Scrimshaw Series. When I saw it in his book I was delighted not to have to list all the Scrimshaw knives.

However, I do repair the Scrimshaw knives and I have a number of replacement blades for the SC507. I have seen the 507SC listing in the catalogs and figured that was just a changeover they had made at some point and never bother to correct in their catalog, like many other things.
Now that you mention it I have never seen a knife or even a replacement blade stamped 507SC.
If I knew less about Schrade than I do, I would think there had to be a logical reason why they did that, and I would spend a lot of time researching trying to come up with a reasonable hypothesis as to why they made that change. I don't know everything about Schrade, but fortunately I know enough not to expect logic or consistency from them!

Thank you for pointing out the fact that there are no 507SC knives. Yet another of many enigmas surrounding Schrade.

[bladecollectorr]

Your welcome, Dale. In all of the flyers, price lists and catalogs the Scrimshaw knives are always listed with the number preceding the letter (507SC etc) but the actual knives are all stamped with the "SC" first (SC507 etc). I can't really guess why either. I have a love-hate thing with the scrims. I really like Giorgianni's artwork and having all the scrims of a particular pattern etc makes for a nice group of collector knives but the ink always seems to be worn off used knives making then unattractive. I have never been tempted to carry one.

Back to the original post, the LB8 "Grizzly" (later changed to "Papa Bear") is another variation that indicates when the change from 4-pin to 3-pin happened.

The very first staglon Bear Paw knives left the factory in 1978 as included in the 2-knife Christmas sets. They consisted of a 4-pin staglon LB7 stamped knife with a brass "Uncle Henry" shield and a 144UH fixed blade. I have a South Carolina set.

In 1980 more escaped the factory as included in the "Gold Rush" set made for Munson Sporting Goods. Once again a 4-pin staglon LB7 stamped knife with brass shield.

Also in 1980 the "Dixie Collection" sets were made available. These contained the same patterns as the 1978 Christmas set. 144UH and 4-pin staglon LB7 stamped knife with nickel-silver shield. They came in four flavors of etches. "Burnside", "Capital", "Lee, Davis, Jackson" and "Steamboat".

Now to the point! The actual LB8 "Grizzly" became a regular catalog item in 1981. It was from the beginning a 3-pin knife. It is shown in the very first flyer (see link below) as having three pins and I have never seen an "LB8" stamped knife with 4 pins. This is another strong indicator that the change from 4-pin to 3-pin happened in 1981. (Note: the 1981 catalog has s a 4-pin LB8 illustrated. This is another inaccuracy. I think 1982 catalog fixed this and shows a 3-pin LB8)

http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYE ... SC81-7.htm

[orvet]

I have a love-hate thing with the scrims. I really like Giorgianni's artwork and having all the scrims of a particular pattern etc makes for a nice group of collector knives but the ink always seems to be worn off used knives making then unattractive. I have never been tempted to carry one.

I share your feelings towards the scrimshaw series. Giorgianni's artwork is incredible. I was fortunate enough to be able to get an original piece of his artwork. It was the result of an early attempt by a group of Schrade collectors on Blade Forums in 2006. There were only 25 knives made and they were hand scrims by Frank Giorgianni Sr. His son said that because of his ill health they were probably the last knives that his dad would ever scrim. Frank also etched the blades.
Rather than post the knife again, here's the link to where it is posted on AAPK: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11928&p=99435&hilit ... haw#p99435

[blade_1971]

I didn't touch the subject of when the "Uncle Henry" stamp was added because I have no recollection about that at all.

Here's link to the flyer for your 1985 display http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYE ... 5-34-1.htm

Nice set!

Yes, that's the set I have. That is a way better picture of it than I have. I will save it for reference.

[bladecollectorr]

I share your feelings towards the scrimshaw series. Giorgianni's artwork is incredible. I was fortunate enough to be able to get an original piece of his artwork. It was the result of an early attempt by a group of Schrade collectors on Blade Forums in 2006. There were only 25 knives made and they were hand scrims by Frank Giorgianni Sr. His son said that because of his ill health they were probably the last knives that his dad would ever scrim. Frank also etched the blades.
Rather than post the knife again, here's the link to where it is posted on AAPK: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11928&p=99435&hilit ... haw#p99435

I have seen that 2006 special (in pictures) before. Awesome collectible! I have one of the Moore Handley Centennial scrim knives he did in 1982. One of my favorite Schrade knives too because of the Giorgianni legacy.

Yes, that's the set I have. That is a way better picture of it than I have. I will save it for reference.

lrv (Larry) collector site is an indespensible resource for Schrade collectors. A lot of questions find answers there and it's still growing. Bookmark that link!

http://collectors-of-schrades-r.us/

[tongueriver]

I sold a daddy barlow to Eric with Giorgianni original actual scrimshaw on white bone which he might share, or maybe I already posted it somewhere here a long time back. Also, Bill Feeney also did some actual scrimshaw. I have two of his canoes in mother of pearl. They are both available. There is nothing like the real deal, is there?

[JAMESC41001]

Great conversation. Not sure if it helps but I remember the reason for a design change for the LB7 being springs that were braking. The first ones were flat on the top and bottom and they changed to a round spring. I also remember that even after they went to 3 pins they continued stamping out the four pin liners rather then retool. If you take notice to the three blades shown here you can see the also changed the locking mechanism dimensions. I don’t remember if these changes were all done together or at different times. I have a quite a few variations. Have to dig them out and take some picks. Maybe I have one that can add to the conversation here.
Jay

[kootenay joe]

The "Moore Handley Centennial" knife shown above is marked :Schrade" but was made by Camillus, as were the other "IXL-Wostenholm" lock backs. To me, who made it is more important than what the tang happens to say, however i do know that some collectors prefer to go by what the markings say.
kj

[JAMESC41001]

Got LB7’s on my mind recently thanks to this post. Carried one around today. Always feels good to have one on me. Took this pick tonight. One of the first with one of the last. Serial 20111 on the countertop display. Lot of water under the bridge between these two. Someone said here that the LB7 put Schrade on the map. I would say kept them on the map might be more accurate. I’ve never put all the LB7 variations I have together but I am going to dig them out and take some pics. They are great knives.

[Meridian_Mike]

I know this is REAL DANGEROUS for ME to say.....

But.... please do put the LB7 variations together either in this thread or a "LB7 variations" thread. I have a couple of different ones BUT.... I do need more!



That is a killer combo you have there.....!!

[tongueriver]

Don't forget the 7OTs and LB8s. They are all in the same litter and I personally greatly prefer the non-stainless 7OT, both for the steel and the aesthetics. Just me?

[Meridian_Mike]

Don't forget the 7OTs and LB8s. They are all in the same litter and I personally greatly prefer the non-stainless 7OT, both for the steel and the aesthetics. Just me?

Nope... not just you.... I'm in the carbon steel crowd. I have several SS knives but not a big fan.

[orvet]

When one considers all the variations on the LB7 such as; LB7, LB8, 6OT, 7OT and the Heritage versions together, it causes me to wonder whether the design teams ever talked to one another?

I will need to take some pictures, but I know there are at least 2 variations in the placement of the rocker pin in the lock bar, at least 2 sizes of locking lugs on the end of the lock bars. There are at least 2 different size pivot pin holes in the blades and there may be a couple locations for the pivot hole in the tang of the blade. I will have to double-check that.

Originally I had thought the parts between these different lockback knives, all built on the same frame, should be interchangeable. I found out that is not the case.
I will come back later with some pictures to show some of the differences between these patterns, and some are design changes.

[Meridian_Mike]

When one considers all the variations on the LB7 such as; LB7, LB8, 6OT, 7OT and the Heritage versions together, it causes me to wonder whether the design teams ever talked to one another?

I will need to take some pictures, but I know there are at least 2 variations in the placement of the rocker pin in the lock bar, at least 2 sizes of locking lugs on the end of the lock bars. There are at least 2 different size pivot pin holes in the blades and there may be a couple locations for the pivot hole in the tang of the blade. I will have to double-check that.

Originally I had thought the parts between these different lockback knives, all built on the same frame, should be interchangeable. I found out that is not the case.
I will come back later with some pictures to show some of the differences between these patterns, and some are design changes.

Very cool Dale....
You gonna post here or start a "variations" thread?

I'm happy either way....