All About Pocket Knives

Well hell Jerry who am I to talk. The last pistol bigger than .22 left about 2 or 3 months ago.
A JC Higgins Ranger 9 shot .22 is all that remains. Well there is a 38 derringer but who's counting?

Just Plain Dave wrote:Well hell Jerry who am I to talk. The last pistol bigger than .22 left about 2 or 3 months ago.
A JC Higgins Ranger 9 shot .22 is all that remains. Well there is a 38 derringer but who's counting?

Hey Dave, I respect your opinion and agree to an extent as I said. Just fills a use for me at night sometimes. I am with ya!

Went to the range today to try out the new SIG 229. What a gun! Smooth as you would expect and very accurate. Only thing I would change possibly change on this and my 226 is to have the SRT package (Short Reset Trigger) installed. There is a slight amount of "trigger takeup" that I could do without as it is unnecessary. Basically it is like 1/4" of slack that is taken up before the real trigger pull start. Not a huge deal but followup shots would be quicker while maintaining accuracy.
Steel plate at 25 yards, full clip of hits, standing position pictured below.

I also took out the .30-06 to test out the new Bi-Pod. Put about 20 rounds thru it. Hitting out to 400 yards (maximum range distance) consistently.

Three young men show up to the table next to me with a brand new S&W AR-10 and nice scope. The guy who owned says to his buddies, "I have never sighted in a rifle before". He takes 5 shots at 100 yards and hits no paper. He gets up from the bench and honestly admits without any shame to it, more matter of fact, "I have no idea what I am doing". I said, "Excuse me, I am no expert but I can certainly help you out if you want", which he gladly accepts.
I give a brief 3 minute tutorial on MOA at different yardage, what that means in clicks, etc and he and I head down range to 100 yards to set 4 targets in a large square to get on paper and dial it in.
When we are setting up the targets, I ask if he lived here and he said he was in the Military, lived in OK and was visiting his parents here before he shipped out to Korea next week.
I said, "Young man, I would like to thank you for your service to myself, my family and our country". He did not looked stunned but I got the impression he had not heard that often enough, in my opinion. He said "Thank you for saying so Sir" we shook hands and back to the bench we went. Turns out he is obviously not a sniper but in intelligence.
I spot for him/call out turret adjustments and within 5 more rounds he is dead on at 100 yards. After that he is hitting steel plates at all ranges out to 400 yards. He was actually a damn good shot, just never was shown how to dial in a scope. We talked some more and he and his buddies went thru a few boxes of ammo. When they were leaving, he came over and thanked me and shook my hand again.

Thanks friends for letting me tell my story. I have to say, even something as simple as that really made me happy and was the highlight of my day. Had he not been a soldier, I would have obviously helped anyway but it was just kind of gratifying to help a soldier out even in some small way for all they do for us. It was also nice to have the opportunity to thanks him for his service.

Regards, Jerry

First magazine SIG 229 pic below...

.....jerry, that's great!!!............... ...............

That was great, Jerry.

Let an old vet ask a probable outdated question:

Can we not still zero our rifles at 25 meters or yards and assume that automatically zeros it to 100 meters or yards or was that ballistically significant only to the arms of the day, i.e. M-1, M-14, M-16, circa 1967 - 70?

Charlie Noyes, out of the loop, so to speak.

..only place I have to shoot now is at a friends house outside the city limits-he has a big dirt mound at the back of his yard which is about 30-35 yds. I've never used a scope, and at that distance, both my henry .22's are dead on!!.....with my .44-40 henry, I have to aim about 6" low to hit the bulls-eye at that range!!.............. ...........

Hey Charlie, does "near zero" ring any bells? Seems that was a term that was used back in the M-14 days at Parris Island, 1964. Every bullet fired has a particular trajectory based on bullet weight, powder charge and shape. They usually start below the line of sight, cross the line of sight (near zero) rise above the line of sight, then cross the line of sight again as gravity pulls the bullet down. Seems like folks used to say 25 yards was the near zero and then the bullet would be pretty close out at 100 yards+/-. That would get you on the paper for fine tuning. So that theory must still hold water as the bullet's path is always an arc. Ballistic charts usually show how much a particular round drops over certain distances.
Treefarmer

I don't think the physics of bullet trajectory has changed since the 1960's; however the adjustments are different for each combination of rifle, cartridge, and ammunition used (M1, M14, M16, etc.) US Army doctrine proscribed a 250 meter zero with M193 Ball. In the preparatory marksmanship training phase the rifleman made his initial adjustments at 25 meters (with an M16A1 your group would be about 4 clicks under the center of the bull). For a simple explanation when using the M16A1 and M193 Ball see pages 85 and 86 in the June 1974 edition of FM 23-9. The manual should be on line, if not I will scan the two pages for you. If you used the M14 there will be a different field manual - I don't have a copy of that one. OH

Thanks. I was basically curious as to why folks were zeroing their rifles at hundreds of meters out, when 25 would probably suffice.

I guess all that data is available for most individual rifles and rounds.

Gets complicated, I'm sure.

Charlie Noyes

Hey Charlie,

What TF said is obviously correct of course. The ranges (25 to 100 yards), rifles and associated caliber weights and velocities, etc, you mention the deviation from zero at 25 meters would be minimal at 100 meters on all those calibers. Maybe (a guess) up to 1 inch or slightly more maximum. Would not be able to tell shooting off hand.
Out farther than that, 200 to 800 yards, whole different ball game obviously. For me, we hunt (or shoot) in the high desert where a "close shot" on game, coyote or paper would be 200 to 300 yards.
Most guys when hunt with a scope will zero at range X and then they hold over based on known drop and practice, Most like me, have a BDC or Bullet Drop Compensation recticle where you zero at X yards, then there are 3 or 4 hash marks or small circles below and sometimes a "Scope cross hair post" at the far edges of the hairs. Each hash or circle represents X amount of yards farther or closer from zero. Some scope BDC scopes are ballistics specific like for a .308 lets say where you zero at 100 yards and lower hash 1 = 200 yards, lower hash is 300 yards, etc. Some like mine are not caliber specific, my scope zero is 200 yards, so the yardage is not right on in 100 yard increments per hash. Here is my setup for a .30-06 with bullets I am using...

I figure I am good not being a steady young man anymore out to 600 yards.

Yards/ inches in drop at 200 yards zero.
0 = -1.8 (don't ask, don't know)
100 = +1.7
200 = 0
300 = -7.7
400 = -22.5
500 = -45.9
600 = -79.8 (top of scope post hairs) 518 yards at 0 degree angle

Yards/ inches in drop at 100 yards zero.
0 = -1.8 (don't ask, don't know)
100 = 0
200 = -3.3
300 = -12.6
400 = -29.1
500 = -54.2
600 = -89.7 (top of scope post hairs) 545 yards 0 degree angle

So as to bottom post, I gain 27 yards on zero at 200 versus 100. All values shown are at 12X magnification. I leave it set at that since changes affect yardages also on crosshairs. Too many variables to calculate already. In the same setup past 600 yards, eventually you run out of holdover (target out of scope view) if you zero in real close.

Most important note here is to "dope" a scope from 100 zero to 600 zero and start making MOA scope adjustments while buck fever is running thru your veins, just no alot of guys do that, although I am sure some do. That takes time and a very good and expensive scope to get back to zero at 100 in this example. Having your head screwed when a trophy buck is in your sights as you are cranking turrets is not easy or desirable for most.

For a hunter where a close shot is 25 yards in the woods, this conversation is moot.

Sorry if it sounds remedial, not my intent. Just trying to answer why some will zero to longer distances best way I know how.

There is a cool BDC calculator that is free. Most scope companies have them and you don't need to own their product either. Fun to play with all sorts of calibers, etc.

Here is the one for my Vortex scope. Basically tell you are all variables are plugged in what the bullet and MOA drops, hash mark yardage, etc based on all sorts of ballistic and environmental factors. Fun to play with if one is really interested.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/content/lrbc#

Regards, Jerry

It's been 53 years next month since I first qualified with the M-14 at Camp Matthews so my memory is a little foggy. We shot at the 200, 300 and 500 yard lines. What I remember is, for qualification, we "zeroed" our rifles at the 200 yd line and then added in the "dope" (additional clicks for azimuth and elevation) for each station as we moved out to the more distant firing lines.

I was not a Mud Marine so I don't have a clue how the Grunts zeroed their weapons for combat. Makes sense they would zero at 100 yds since it is my understanding that most combat took place at that distance or less and they would hold over (use Kentucky windage) for shots farther out.

How would a Doggie not know how to zero his weapon? Do they not all get the same training? Do they not all have to qualify?

Ready on the right.
Ready on the left.
All ready on the firing line.
Watch your targets.
Targets!

jerryd6818 wrote:How would a Doggie not know how to zero his weapon? Do they not all get the same training? Do they not all have to qualify?

Ready on the right.
Ready on the left.
All ready on the firing line.
Watch your targets.
Targets!

You lost me. What "Doggie" are you referring to? Are you referring to the young soldier I helped? Not following you. Please clarify.

Regards, Jerry

Yeah, he is referring to a Soldier (Doggie is one of the slang terms). I had the same thought as JerryD, but then assumed your young Soldier was stated he was not used to zeroing a scoped rifle. It has been so many years since I was on a military small arms firing range that I don't know what sights the rifles have now, but ours (M16A1 when I was an EM and company grade officer - M16A2 when I was a new field grade) had the standard iron sights peculiar to each variation - you adjusted windage on the rear sight and elevation on the front sight post of the M16A1 (not a good design in my opinion). I don't know what optics are issued to BCT trainees nowadays, but every trainee is taught to fire the standard issue rifle. OH

.....none of you guys fired the M1 garand????..........I AM getting old!!!.....first rifle I was issued in basic training was a springfield M103??, but before we went to the rifle range, they replaced them with the M1!!.......... .............

What the Colonel said. Just some of that friendly inter-service rivalry. I've only used a scope a couple of times but unless there's something I'm not seeing, it doesn't look that difficult to zero. Adjust the vertical reticule for windage. Adjust the horizontal reticule for elevation.

Yes, Tommy. I've fired the M-1. We carried the M-14 in boot camp (one of the first platoons to be issued the M-14) but when we went up to Pendleton for ITR (Infantry Training Regiment) we were issued the M-1. Only carried it for a month.

We had M-1's in Basic at Ft. Campbell in 1967, M-14's at AIT at Ft. Ord and I didn't qualify with an M-16 until just before I left Ft. Lewis for Viet Nam.

I may have misspoke above, I think zero at 25 yds was equal to a zero at 250 yds.

I do not recall being taught to adjust the site for declination at distances, but to adjust aiming point.

I do know that at 400 yds, aiming a foot over a man's head will place the round center chest, same on a silhouette target. Not accounting for wind, of course.

Charlie Noyes

Hey Carmillus,

I have a M1 Garand and a M1 Carbine, too, that my Father in Law gave me. I have shot both of them quite a bit. I was even blasphemous enough to stick a scope on the Garand for a while (since removed).

I put an Ultimack rail and Leupold Scout Scout with long eye relief on it. It is actually pretty fun to shoot that way. The Ultimack just replaces the hand guard, so you can swap it back to original...i.e. no permanent modifications.

We had a scoped and silenced Garand at our little camp in Viet Nam. I took it out to the end of the airstrip on day and fired a few clips through it.

Sweet...........

.... and then I realized I was several hundred meters North of camp, that much closer to Cambodia and alone with a sniper rifle.

Charlie

I hear ya OH and JerryD. I too was a little shocked that a young soldier who has been thru Basic and rifle qualification did not know how to sight in a scope quickly either but I was glad to help.
After thinking about it, it made sense though in a way. I believe the current infantry soldier uses the M-68 which is an Aimshot Red Dot scope if I am am correct. Most if not all red dot scopes (and lasers for that matter) have buttons, dials or use allen wrenches to change location of dot to desired impact location. MOA adjustment, magnification used, parallax, 1 MOA = 1.05" at 100 yards but 1 MOA = 2.10" at 200 yards, etc are not usually, if at all, factors on a red dot scope sighting. Rather a different animal.

jerryd6818 wrote:I've only used a scope a couple of times but unless there's something I'm not seeing, it doesn't look that difficult to zero. Adjust the vertical reticule for windage. Adjust the horizontal reticule for elevation.

Correct JerryD. I agree. It is not rocket science for sure. But considering I just picked up .30-06 ammo at $1.10 per round and that was a smoking deal, can get pretty costly just cranking the knobs not knowing what you are doing as you are trying to hit paper let alone zero at X yardage.

Aside from zeroing a rifle scope...

I don't claim to be and I am certainly not an expert. I have however been studying this the past 2 months regarding making long range shots and I will tell you, the amount of ballistic and environmental variables will make one's head spin. It does mine.
Not that I am a marksman for sure as my steadiness is slowly diminishing, not like it used to be. I am however really intrigued by the concept and all the factors that go into it. What can I say, it keeps me out of the bars.

Most will know this but maybe some don't. Here is the one shot way to zero a rifle scope.

1. Most have immovable gun. Borrow a "lead sled" or shooting vise if needed.
2. Place 4 foot by 4 foot piece of target paper at desired zero distance. Place dot roughly in center.
3. Bore sight by looking thru barrel if a bolt gun and rough match crosshairs on scope to target dot.
4. Look thru scope and place crosshairs on target dot.
5. Fire one round. Ensure crosshairs did not move.
6. Assuming you hit paper, dial both windage and elevation turrets regardless of clicks to line up with first shot hole in paper from step 5.
7. Move sled to align crosshairs to target dot on step 4. Rifle should be dead on at zero'd distance.

Regards, Jerry

rangerbluedog wrote:Picked up an old Yugoslavian Tokarev M57. This uses the 7.62x25 cartridge.
Better pics when it gets here - maybe. I don't usually modify old firearms, but can't you just imagine this one, dehorned, parkerized dark gray, with OD green G10 grips and modern sights?

Here it is in hand, with front sight turned back around the way it is supposed to be. Another pic showing the 7.62x25 cartridge.

Blue, Cool looking pistol; I remember firing one of those M57 at the range several years back when they were being imported in large numbers - it was a fairly potent round for a 90 grain, 30 caliber bullet. Old Soviet Bloc weapons are quite interesting. OH

Especially the necked round.

Yea I like that Blue. Interesting firearm. Was cool to read up on the history.

Jerry

Interesting to read the comparison to the Colt 1911. You almost never read stuff like that.
Probably because it's hard to best the 1911.
This Tokarev designed some neat guns.
Also looked up the cartridge.
I don't know what I'd do without my "Cartridges of the World".
I love this stuff.

Very cool! Thanks for posting that information too!