All About Pocket Knives

TheMadHungarian wrote:I just asked him what qualifies him to grade knives that way and why his system differs so much from established guidelines ?

Did he reply Ted?

Ken

I sent him this question concerning the re-handled knives he has for sale:

How is it that you have such an elaborate grading system but sell so many obviously re-handled knives and call them mint, near mint etc.? First I think they should be stated as re-handled and then not graded any higher than very good as a collectible knife.

And got this reply:

I have changed the grading system to one that was recommended to me by another knife guy (Voyles grading system), as far as re-handleing of knives go, I don't consider that to be a issue that would down grade a knife, except to a collector who would know by looking, if a knife is unused but has stag handles instead of delrin, is it not a better quality knife ? If my 65 mustang has nice wheels and tires, its still a cherry mustang, right ? I never say the knife is collector quality unless it is all original and unused. Thanks for your input, It was never my intension to mislead anyone or to hide anything. I have never had anyone who objected to my descriptions, or was not completely satisfied with one of my knifes.

To which I replied:

I hope you have managed to convince yourself with your reply. Re-handled is missing from your description. Far from honest.

And he in turn answered:

I will be adding that to my description.

I do see that he has not changed the grading but did ad that the knives had been re-handled with the exception of the Case Tested XX 5200 LP that has new stag handles on it. The re-handled note is at the very end of the long winded grading system where it is least likely to be noticed. Still looks like smoke and mirrors to me.

Looks like he deleted my comment and never replied.

peanut740 wrote:Sounds like Voyles grading system. Which in my opinion is much too generous.

I am with you Roger. I grade my own knives way harder than that. If it has seen a pocket once, it is used and carried.

I find when most people over grade a knife, they are selling it. Notice I said MOST, not all.

I better leave it at that.

Jerry

zp4ja wrote:

peanut740 wrote:Sounds like Voyles grading system. Which in my opinion is much too generous.

I am with you Roger. I grade my own knives way harder than that. If it has seen a pocket once, it is used and carried.

I find when most people over grade a knife, they are selling it. Notice I said MOST, not all.

I better leave it at that.

Jerry

You said it pretty well Jerry. I put Voyles in the same camp as Parker and Frost. To their credit they've all been pioneers in advocating knife collecting, and done a lot to promote the hobby. They've all taken personal advantage of that, but to their detriment with some IMHO borderline practices leaning to the sellers viewpoints. Over grading a knife for instance. Not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that - just understand what you're dealing with. And I agree that thankfully not all sellers follow their example. Caveat emptor!

Ken

Mumbleypeg wrote:

zp4ja wrote:

peanut740 wrote:Sounds like Voyles grading system. Which in my opinion is much too generous.

I am with you Roger. I grade my own knives way harder than that. If it has seen a pocket once, it is used and carried.

I find when most people over grade a knife, they are selling it. Notice I said MOST, not all.

I better leave it at that.

Jerry

You said it pretty well Jerry. I put Voyles in the same camp as Parker and Frost. To their credit they've all been pioneers in advocating knife collecting, and done a lot to promote the hobby. They've all taken personal advantage of that, but to their detriment with some IMHO borderline practices leaning to the sellers viewpoints. Over grading a knife for instance. Not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that - just understand what you're dealing with. And I agree that thankfully not all sellers follow their example. Caveat emptor!

Ken

Well said and spot on. I wish you could grade a knife like a coin but there are so many variable it's nearly impossible to come up with a simple standard grading system. The default is to honestly and accurately describe a knife and come to a consensus between the parties involved. Good thing I collect for use and fun.

Question: is this something that all knife collectors agree with? If so, is there a way this could be made a sticky post, maybe to the General Knife Discussion thread?

This is printed in Larry & Roy Ehrhardt's Price Guide to 2000 Winchester and Marble's Hardware Collectibles, I'm sure others have incorporated it into their reference books too.

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:26 am Question: is this something that all knife collectors agree with? If so, is there a way this could be made a sticky post, maybe to the General Knife Discussion thread?

This is printed in Larry & Roy Ehrhardt's Price Guide to 2000 Winchester and Marble's Hardware Collectibles, I'm sure others have incorporated it into their reference books too.

Absolutely not!

What don't you like about this grading system, Roger? I think it would be great if something was in place that all collectors could agree with. I saw that you too can't understand how Voyles comes up with his random grading system. I'm only referring to the Item 2.) grading system standards.

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:47 am What don't you like about this grading system, Roger? I think it would be great if something was in place that all collectors could agree with. I saw that you too can't understand how Voyles comes up with his random grading system. I'm only referring to the Item 2.) grading system standards.

This is Voyles grading system.

Any grading system that uses the words carry, carried, not carried is a no for me. These words are most often used hypothetically and have nothing to do with the actual condition of the knife. Any system that uses the word cleaned and grades a knife as mint is a no as well. Cleaned to mint is an oxymoron. Cleaned to near mint when the cleaning involves resurfacing of metal doesn't work for me either. My 2 cents worth.

Voyles does not adhere to his own grading system then! Just check out his next auction, you will see.

The pictured grading does use the word "carried" but does not incorporate the "cleaned" aspect.

Just noticed the bottom percentage is cut off in my picture, it should be 15%.

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm Voyles does not adhere to his own grading system then! Just check out his next auction, you will see.

For many (too many), principles and rules are followed only when convenient for them. It is a rare person who adheres to and stands for his principles and convictions regardless the consequences.

Ken

Mumbleypeg wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:20 pm

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm Voyles does not adhere to his own grading system then! Just check out his next auction, you will see.

For many (too many), principles and rules are followed only when convenient for them. It is a rare person who adheres to and stands for his principles and convictions regardless the consequences.

Ken

And that's a sad but true statement, Ken.

Mark Warner emailed a blanket survey of future issues that need to be addressed. I added, "Integrity throughout all levels and functions of the government." Like that will ever happen.

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm Voyles does not adhere to his own grading system then! Just check out his next auction, you will see.

The pictured grading does use the word "carried" but does not incorporate the "cleaned" aspect.

Just noticed the bottom percentage is cut off in my picture, it should be 15%.

What you posted was the NKC&DA guidelines from about 1972 or so.I don't know if they officially changed the wording any after it evolved into the NKCA or not.But cleaning knives didn't become much of a thing in 1972.Also Bruce was heavily involved with the NKCA in the early years.
My problem is it over grades knives,especially in the good to excellent/ near mint.No way should a knife with 25% blade wear, cracks and lazy blades be considered good condition.

Here's what Bernard Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, Extensively Revised 4th Edition uses, also an NKCA grading system. From 1997, hope the picture is legible. I think it's pretty much the same thing.

Any better grading info out there, I'd be interested in reading it.

This grading scale is something I undertook some research on this past spring. I don't know how many different grading scales, tables, charts or whatever you want to call them I looked at. My adult life has been military air traffic control, very legalistic, very precisely laid out step by step so that's the way I approached this project. Finally I took what I considered the best information from several scales along with some of my own wording and came up with a grading chart that I use on my own collection. I would appreciate if a couple of you folks would go to my website and read what I have written and let me know the good and the bad. https://www.davidsblades.com/grade-the- ... ding-knife

David, I think you have done an excellent job. It's pretty stingent but I like it that way. Collectors, sellers and buyers have often used plus or minus to indicate where on the grade a particular knife is and I think that can be applied to your grades as well. You also did it withiout using the words carry or carried. To me the grades that matter most are Excellent, near mint and mint. What lies below those grades is not that important to me. Not that those grades or knives don't matter but just that I don't think there is a need to split hairs in those categories.

Using your grades I don't see how a cleaned knife can meet the near mint criteria since it would require the original factory finishes to be intact. Given that I would think that cleaned would fall into the excellent category at best and I'm okay with that.

Well done.

2 things come to mind, David.

1.) A missing etching on an old Remington knife, for example, is enough to only give it a Good grade? I have seen some knives I would consider to be in Excellent condition but there's no etch left due to the fact the method of applying the etch was weak to begin with (like inked etches).

2.) I think a percentage of blade loss from sharpening/use, rather than 1/3 to 1/2, might be more informative in the categories Excellent and under (like 10%, 20%, 30%).

Thanks for posting this! Now how would one get something like this to become the new standard?

1967redrider wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:17 am 2 things come to mind, David.

1.) A missing etching on an old Remington knife, for example, is enough to only give it a Good grade? I have seen some knives I would consider to be in Excellent condition but there's no etch left due to the fact the method of applying the etch was weak to begin with (like inked etches).

2.) I think a percentage of blade loss from sharpening/use, rather than 1/3 to 1/2, might be more informative in the categories Excellent and under (like 10%, 20%, 30%).

Thanks for posting this! Now how would one get something like this to become the new standard?

Thank you redrider and btrwtr for your comments. I know what I have is not perfect and I hope to receive more input from others so I can make it better.
As far as your question redrider I've gotten it out there to the largest audience I know of, the internet, and it will be in the book I'm almost finished with. For anything to become the "standard" it will take several respected organizations to accept it, promote it and then lots of time for everyone else to accept and use it.

Keep us posted, and thanks!

dlr110 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:27 pm This grading scale is something I undertook some research on this past spring. I don't know how many different grading scales, tables, charts or whatever you want to call them I looked at. My adult life has been military air traffic control, very legalistic, very precisely laid out step by step so that's the way I approached this project. Finally I took what I considered the best information from several scales along with some of my own wording and came up with a grading chart that I use on my own collection. I would appreciate if a couple of you folks would go to my website and read what I have written and let me know the good and the bad. https://www.davidsblades.com/grade-the- ... ding-knife

Great job on this! I like the specifics of your list (condition of bolsters, blades, handles, etc) for each category.
The problem with most grading systems is that much of the criteria can be subjective. Your system is too specific to allow one to "fudge" the grading.
Not a criticism, but one suggestion: perhaps set up a completely separate category for "Repaired" knives. This could include one with properly replaced blades or handles, that would otherwise be graded rather high due to it's appearance. I would put any polished knife in that category, as well.
Just a thought.